MorningGlory Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.08 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2007 Wow! How far off the mark. So the blood of Jesus is incapable of cleansing us from all sin? Believing that lie will get you into a lot of trouble one Day. Here is the problem. You do not respond to a single point I made. You just say, "You're wrong, I'm right." I have quoted the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that no one is assured of salvation. What is so harmful about purgatory? It doesn't matter about your single points. what matters is all of what your saying says the blood of christ is not enough. that in itself is enough to show your off the mark. WAY off the mark. Christs blood atoned for all sin. So no one has to pay any price for sin unless they die unsaved. Absolutely correct. Christ's blood is all that is required for salvation. It's the basic premise of Christianity, for Pete's sake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.08 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2007 Wow! How far off the mark. So the blood of Jesus is incapable of cleansing us from all sin? Believing that lie will get you into a lot of trouble one Day. Here is the problem. You do not respond to a single point I made. You just say, "You're wrong, I'm right." I have quoted the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that no one is assured of salvation. What is so harmful about purgatory? It doesn't matter about your single points. what matters is all of what your saying says the blood of christ is not enough. that in itself is enough to show your off the mark. WAY off the mark. Christs blood atoned for all sin. So no one has to pay any price for sin unless they die unsaved. Absolutely correct. Christ's blood is all that is required for salvation. It's the basic premise of Christianity, for Pete's sake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Lets slow down and take a different approach here. No one is directly dealing with the points made. What I see is statement of this can't be right because I believe in a doctrine supported by such and such verse, yet never directly dealing with the points that CaritateDei made. So lets back up and only deal with one thing at a time. Lets start with his first point, Matthew 12:32 "Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come." If Jesus forgave all of our sins by his death and resurrection and we need no other cleansing for salvation, why does he give the implication that some sins can be forgiven in the next world? Those in hell cannot be forgiven. Those in heaven NEED not be forgiven. Where does this remission of sin come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven. IF you are going to quote different scripture that contradict this scripture then you have created a problem and we must always reconcile all scripture with each other. If we can't then we have mis-interpreted the scripture. Scripture does not contradict scripture. It is someones interpretation that is wrong. Can anyone answer this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypc Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 972 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1964 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 Matthew 12:32 "Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come." If we look at this scripture in it's context we find that jesus is talking about something so evil that he magnifies his word by saying "or the age to come." .In other words, it is so serious that your done for eternity. The problem with false doctrine is it always takes a scripture out from many to say what it wants instead of defining all scripture or being defined by other scripture. We must understand that if we use this princible for this scripture, it will define that Jesus' death was only part of salvation and his blood was almost enough which we know to be untrue All cults spawned from so called bible teaching always and I mean always add or take away from the cross. This is one way to spot out false doctrine, cult teaching and such. JWs say there is no hell. We say show us...........so they quote this scripture Ecc 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. They use this scripture to define all scripture concerning hell even though there are a bunch of scriptures that define hell as a real place. Sad.........! The Bible will never contradict itself, it will always define itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Praying for the Dead, and needing salvation in the NEXT life strongly show a need for purification. If not works, how do you ever receive another purification? God doesn't provide it, so.....? A gospel of FAITH WITH WORKS. Do not put words in my mouth. So where does that faith fit in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliyahuw Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,263 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/17/1961 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Lets start with his first point, Matthew 12:32 "Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come." If Jesus forgave all of our sins by his death and resurrection and we need no other cleansing for salvation, why does he give the implication that some sins can be forgiven in the next world? Those in hell cannot be forgiven. Those in heaven NEED not be forgiven. Where does this remission of sin come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven. IF you are going to quote different scripture that contradict this scripture then you have created a problem and we must always reconcile all scripture with each other. If we can't then we have mis-interpreted the scripture. Scripture does not contradict scripture. It is someones interpretation that is wrong. Can anyone answer this question. I think the better point would be how are you justifying using this verse to negate the cross. You negate christs blood you might as well throw christianity in the trash for all the good it will do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Matthew 12:32 "Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come." If we look at this scripture in it's context we find that jesus is talking about something so evil that he magnifies his word by saying "or the age to come." .In other words, it is so serious that your done for eternity. The problem with false doctrine is it always takes a scripture out from many to say what it wants instead of defining all scripture or being defined by other scripture. We must understand that if we use this princible for this scripture, it will define that Jesus' death was only part of salvation and his blood was almost enough which we know to be untrue All cults spawned from so called bible teaching always and I mean always add or take away from the cross. This is one way to spot out false doctrine, cult teaching and such. JWs say there is no hell. We say show us...........so they quote this scripture Ecc 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. They use this scripture to define all scripture concerning hell even though there are a bunch of scriptures that define hell as a real place. Sad.........! The Bible will never contradict itself, it will always define itself. I agree scripture will never contradict itself. The problem is that you have to introject your understanding into Jesus's words to hold your position. Jesus would not have given us an example of something that was a false doctrine, or a lie, or that is contrary to his truth, just to make a point. So your conclusion that Jesus was just overstating to make a point depends on Jesus also sugesting a false doctrine to do so. I for one do not think Jesus would do this. He talks about a forgivness after death. There MUST be something to it, or Jesus would not have said it. As for the rest of your post it is all opinion and conjecture. You are also right it is better to see if other scripture supports the idea. So lets look further, CaritateDei second verse: 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire." Again, this cannot refer to hell. No one in hell is saved. It cannot refer to heaven either, because no one in Heaven will suffer. Where does this suffering come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven. Do you notice how the two verses support each other. Scripture supporting Scripture. Can anyone answer this question. Where is this suffering, this loss, this fire happening. It can't be heaven, and it can't be Hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Matthew 12:32 "Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come." If we look at this scripture in it's context we find that jesus is talking about something so evil that he magnifies his word by saying "or the age to come." .In other words, it is so serious that your done for eternity. The problem with false doctrine is it always takes a scripture out from many to say what it wants instead of defining all scripture or being defined by other scripture. We must understand that if we use this princible for this scripture, it will define that Jesus' death was only part of salvation and his blood was almost enough which we know to be untrue All cults spawned from so called bible teaching always and I mean always add or take away from the cross. This is one way to spot out false doctrine, cult teaching and such. JWs say there is no hell. We say show us...........so they quote this scripture Ecc 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. They use this scripture to define all scripture concerning hell even though there are a bunch of scriptures that define hell as a real place. Sad.........! The Bible will never contradict itself, it will always define itself. I agree scripture will never contradict itself. The problem is that you have to introject your understanding into Jesus's words to hold your position. Jesus would not have given us an example of something that was a false doctrine, or a lie, or that is contrary to his truth, just to make a point. So your conclusion that Jesus was just overstating to make a point depends on Jesus also sugesting a false doctrine to do so. I for one do not think Jesus would do this. He talks about a forgivness after death. There MUST be something to it, or Jesus would not have said it. As for the rest of your post it is all opinion and conjecture. You are also right it is better to see if other scripture supports the idea. So lets look further, CaritateDei second verse: 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire." Again, this cannot refer to hell. No one in hell is saved. It cannot refer to heaven either, because no one in Heaven will suffer. Where does this suffering come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven. Do you notice how the two verses support each other. Scripture supporting Scripture. Can anyone answer this question. Where is this suffering, this loss, this fire happening. It can't be heaven, and it can't be Hell. Everyone's works will be tried by fire....the fire of God. Holy fire. If the works stand, or survive, there are rewards. If the works are consumed, they are for naught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Lets start with his first point, Matthew 12:32 "Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come." If Jesus forgave all of our sins by his death and resurrection and we need no other cleansing for salvation, why does he give the implication that some sins can be forgiven in the next world? Those in hell cannot be forgiven. Those in heaven NEED not be forgiven. Where does this remission of sin come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven. IF you are going to quote different scripture that contradict this scripture then you have created a problem and we must always reconcile all scripture with each other. If we can't then we have mis-interpreted the scripture. Scripture does not contradict scripture. It is someones interpretation that is wrong. Can anyone answer this question. I think the better point would be how are you justifying using this verse to negate the cross. You negate christs blood you might as well throw christianity in the trash for all the good it will do you. If scripture negates your understanding then maybe your understanding is wrong. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. These are not the words of CaritateDei, they are the words of God. So the point is very valid and one you should think about. It is scripture after all. Can you answer the question? If not then maybe looking at other scripture that also speaks to the subject would be a good idea. Take a look at the second verse CaritateDei provided it supports the same idea that Jesus says here. Hmmm Scripture supporting Scripture. By the way the concept of purgatory does not negate the cross. It might negate your understanding of the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypc Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 972 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1964 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 Matthew 12:32 "Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come." If we look at this scripture in it's context we find that jesus is talking about something so evil that heawned from so called bible teaching always and I mean always add or take away from the cross. This is one way to spot out false doctrine, cult teaching and such. JWs say there is no hell. We say show us...........so they quote this scripture Ecc 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. They use this scripture to define all scripture concerning hell even though there are a bunch of scriptures that define hell as a real place. Sad.........! The Bible will never contradict itself, it will always define itself. I agree scripture will never contradict itself. The problem is that you have to introject your understanding into Jesus's words to hold your position. Jesus would not have given us an example of something that was a false doctrine, or a lie, or that is contrary to his truth, just to make a point. So your conclusion that Jesus was just overstating to make a point depends on Jesus also sugesting a false doctrine to do so. I for one do not think Jesus would do this. He talks about a forgivness after death. There MUST be something to it, or Jesus would not have said it. As for the rest of your post it is all opinion and conjecture. You are also right it is better to see if other scripture supports the idea. So lets look further, CaritateDei second verse: 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire." Again, this cannot refer to hell. No one in hell is saved. It cannot refer to heaven either, because no one in Heaven will suffer. Where does this suffering come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven. Do you notice how the two verses support each other. Scripture supporting Scripture. Can anyone answer this question. Where is this suffering, this loss, this fire happening. It can't be heaven, and it can't be Hell. We define what Jesus means by other scripture.......it's that simple. If he is meaning that something else is required then it would have been defined by Paul, Peter or James and John which it was not. 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire." This scripture is defined by itself..........the work is burned up through fire........"God is a consuming fire" 1 Cor 3:10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. What is the day that brings the fire?............This scripture is easy to define...........if you as a christian have done some of your work in vain, it ain't holden up..............but to say these scriptures are talkin about a place called purgatory is ridiculas because it would have been defined all over the new test! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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