Feminism is anti-Christ

[Marnie]

The curses on the woman can be read a little differently, butero. The pain in childbirth can refer to physical pain, but also emotional pain as well. And also, G-d cursed the woman with having a single minded desire for her husband. While this sounds good from the man's point of view...notice the man was NOT cursed with a single minded desire for his wife. His desire would be for his work; in other words, his desire would be for himself and his own world. I am not arguing here, merely pointing out that as a result of the curse, there can never be a "meeting of the minds" between the sexes and you are right, men will always feel the need to dominate women. It's a curse, without a doubt, but on both sexes.

Regeneration through the Holy Spirit may alleviate some of the curses to a point, as we are all one in Christ. But we are also Adam's descendants and therefore subject to the curses. It's the theological conundrum of the "now and the not yet." It's what Paul was getting at in Romans 8--

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. vv. 21-23 KJV

[Vickilynn]

It's also another thing to argue a immature person's submission to a parent verses an adult to an adult for no given divine reason not to mention that wives are never even told to obey their husbands neither husbands to lead their wives. Such things are not written anywhere. How do I know that God did not mandate that husbands lead? I know because it's not written anywhere. It's not written in the 10 commandmentsa, the OT or the NT.

Shalom Firehill,

1 Corinthians 11

3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 5

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

Colossians 3:

18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. 21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. 22 Slaves,[f] obey in everything those who are your earthly masters,[g] not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. 23Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

I'm not sure what your point is.

Shalom Firehill,

My point is simply that you said no place in Scripture does it say that we are to obey our husbands and that is incorrect as I have shown THROUGH the Scriptures.

The submission spoken of in Eph 5 comes down to respect as Paul defines it as such in his concluding statementof chapter 5.

That's not what is says. You can try to change it around, but the Word remains clear, women are to obey and submit to their husbands. It is very plain.

Let me claify what I wrote.

Thank you, but you need not repost it. I read and understood it the first time, but I refuted your position with pure Scripture that says that we are to obey and submit to our husbands.

If human sexuality determined 'leadership', 'authority', 'rule', 'submission' etc etc then ofcourse women wouldn't have the natural human ability (since it's not a sex thing) in their nature to be a leader etc nor men to be submissive...

That is simply not true. The Bible says it plainly. You are trying to justify a fleshly desire not to submit by fleshly standards. G-d cannot be understood by fleshly standards. His Word is the standard.

Ultimately all one can try to argue is a 'God said so.' Well did He and where?

I already showed you above. These are clear commands for wives to obey husbands.

As for women being silent in the church it means women are not to be pastors or oven men in any way. It means what it means.

Excuse me, but this is not MY quote. I never went down that trail as it is not the topic of this thread. If you are going to discuss this, please discuss this with the person who wrote it. I did not, so I cannot speak for them. Please go back and credit the quote to the correct person and reply to them, not me.

Thank you.

[OopsMartin]

Floatingaxe wrote:

Paul refers to the Genesis in order to continually represent that men and women have an interdependence on one another. God's desire because of that is that we not have any room to despise one another. Man holds no prideful disdain over woman because she was created for him because of his need for her. Woman cannot be independent of man because she was created from him.

This is very good insight.

[Floatingaxe]

Floatingaxe wrote:

Paul refers to the Genesis in order to continually represent that men and women have an interdependence on one another. God's desire because of that is that we not have any room to despise one another. Man holds no prideful disdain over woman because she was created for him because of his need for her. Woman cannot be independent of man because she was created from him.

This is very good insight.

[OopsMartin]

Firehill is correct that there is no place in Scripture where wives are told they must obey their husbands. This becomes quite evident when we note that everyone is admonished to submit one to another, then wives encouraged to do so toward their husbands and husbands are admonished to nurture and love their wives (as their own body), BUT the tone is changed to children and slaves who are directly admonished to obey.

Submission can have an element of obedience in it depending on the context. The context here for husbands and wives is mutual support and honor, not one of master and slave.

[OopsMartin]

[

There was one fundamental main point, Butero. Are we called to ensure the effects of the fall or try to alleviate them?

We are not called to do either. God placed these curses and they are to remain until the return of Christ. I have no ability to change what God has decreed.

Fortunately, God did not decree that wives allow husbands to harshly rule them, He only warned Eve that her man would. Thus we are not forced in any way to be harsh to our wives, or order them about, or become their lord. We are free to love them, to honor and support them, and to encourage them in Christ. There is nothing said anywhere in Scripture to men that they must be masters, bosses, lords, commanders, leaders, or "final decision makers" in their wives lives.

[Vickilynn]

Firehill is correct that there is no place in Scripture where wives are told they must obey their husbands.

Shalom Martin,

It's not a matter of Firehill being correct or not, it's a matter of what the Bible says.

Please review the SCRIPTURES I posted. It is there, plain as day. Wives are to submit to their authority (head) Husband as he submits to Messiah. There is no getting around it.

And no one (but you) said "master/slave." That is a common argument to justify not submitting as the Scriptures command.

The question we need to ask is are we going to obey G-d's command to obey and submit to our husbands or are we going to rebel and not submit and obey? We will have to answer to G-d for our submission to our husbands.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

Ack!

Double posts! This board freezes up!!

[OopsMartin]

Firehill is correct that there is no place in Scripture where wives are told they must obey their husbands.

Shalom Martin,

It's not a matter of Firehill being correct or not, it's a matter of what the Bible says.

Please review the SCRIPTURES I posted. It is there, plain as day. Wives are to submit to their authority (head) Husband as he submits to Messiah. There is no getting around it.

And no one (but you) said "master/slave." That is a common argument to justify not submitting as the Scriptures command.

The question we need to ask is are we going to obey G-d's command to obey and submit to our husbands or are we going to rebel and not submit and obey? We will have to answer to G-d for our submission to our husbands.

Vickylynn, none of the Scriptures you posted tell women they must obey their husband, neither do any of them tell husbands they need to lead their wives or give them commands they must obey.

What is being compared is relationship. The husband is the kephele of the wife in the same way that Christ is kephele of the church and savior of "the body". The body of believers are born from Christ's sacrifice. We only exist because Christ died that we might live. Because of that fact we honor, support, respect Christ. There are other places where Christ's authority as God and creator is discussed. But this is about His sacrifice and willingness to give Himself into our lives.

1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

This is what this section is about. We need to read Scripture in context. Read what is said before as well as what is said afterwards. Paul does lots of leading into the subject as he tries to paint pictures of what he wants to convey.

17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 2021 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

And here is the other part of the picture. It's about attitude and relationship, all our relationship even including marriage, job, family.

[Neopatriarch]

What is being compared is relationship. The husband is the kephele of the wife in the same way that Christ is kephele of the church and savior of "the body". The body of believers are born from Christ's sacrifice.

So then wives are 'born again' from their husband's sacrifice?

It seems the more egalitarians explain things, the more they lose everyone in a morass of ambiguity.