God's Love: Conditional or Unconditional?

[OneAccord]

Calvinism or Aminianism or better yet, neither?

Quote:

God's unfailing love is unconditional -- but -- on the following conditions:

1. That you are in the elect (Calvinism) or that God has foreknown that you are one of the few who will repent -- in this lifetime (Arminianism).

2. That you hear of Christ in this lifetime.

3. That you respond to Him in this lifetime.

4. That you trust only in His mercy and His grace -- as well as walk in consistent obedience. For thus you must prove your salvation (Calvinism) or assure your salvation (Arminianism).

5. That you don't die in sin.

6. That you endure until the end.

7. God is committed love/God's love, however, is not committed to many people (Calvinism).

8. God loves everyone with total commitment -- but, however, even so ... (Arminianism).

9. God has chosen to help some people/God has chosen to abandon most people.

10. God saves hopeful failures/God gets rid of hopeless failures.

11. Love is kind/Love has spawned billions of people He already knows are doomed for endless fiery disaster.

12. God is all powerful and loves you. However, He has ordained that your free will shall be the bottom line factor that determines your eternal destiny. Thus, your identity -- whether a child of God or a child of everlasting evil and darkness -- depends on your willpower.

13. God is the Savior of all/He is not the Savior of all.

14. You must love the Lord with all your heart, though He is not fully committed to you or anyone else, unless people are diligent to trust and obey. In other words, He loves you, but don't count on it.

15. God is Everlasting Forgiveness/Eternal Wrath and Vindictiveness

16. Our Lord is utterly victorious and will destroy the devil's works. Yet the devil will destroy most of Christ's works (people) forever.

17. God is worthy of all power, honor and praise because He has created a few things for His pleasure. However, when I sing that chorus, I must say "all things."

18. God is Sovereign, so He can commit any atrocity He pleases (Calvinistic agony once again.) Or -God is good, but the whole reason He gave us free wills was so He would eventually have a universe forever divided between "winners" and 'losers." A universe He will weep over for all eternity. In other words, God loves pain!? (Armininian torment again.)

19. You can count on God if you are in the "elect." (Calvinism). Or

20. You can count on God if He can count on you. (Arminianism).

21. You must believe all the Lord says in His Word, but don't take all He says too seriously. On the other hand -- perhaps you had better take Him more seriously. Yes or no? (How could we Armininian Christians talk so much about grace even while we teetered on the brink of a possible Christless infinity!?)

22. God, in His holy, sovereign grace, may have chosen you for salvation. How dare that you not rejoice that your friends, neighbors and loved ones may be predestined for eternal torment! Truly spiritual people can delight and hope in the Lord no matter what!

23. The Lord is gracious, tenderhearted, compassionate and patient. He does not cast off forever because of the multitude of His mercies. Even so, it isn't wise to carry that idea too far. He gets rid of some people That is, He 'loses ability" to ever reach them, etc., etc.... That does sound nicer, doesn't it? (Armininism. again.)

All of these hopeless contradictions were entrenched in my belief system, posing as "truths."

Shocking?

Have a look at these...

1. God thinks you are "very special." Don't worry that in His foreknowledge He's written off most everyone else. Just trust...

2. Perhaps God wants us to believe all the Bible, but not to think about parts of it too much so we'll have courage to trust in His grace? Also He wants us Christians to preach only the comforting parts of it -- at least most of the time, in order to make Him appear nice? (Calv-Armininian agony working.)

3. Maybe God hopes everyone in the world will at least feel loved by Christians before He consigns most everyone to endless torment. In the meanwhile, we Christians should oppose abortion (!) and build hospitals and try to provide every help possible for the world's starving and homeless multitudes ... ? (Believe me, I tried very hard not to think about this horrifying contradiction.)

4. All earth's families will be blessed in Christ, Abraham's "Seed." Well, a little bit, for a few years (so I was trained to believe) -- before most of them are sentenced to endless despair. (Powerful promise, huh?)

5. God loves you and is committed to you for who you are, not for what you do. Nevertheless, He has already planned in advance to abandon most people because of what they do or don't do.

6. God is love/hate (Guess which system!)

7. God is good, but ... (Guess which system!)

8. You can trust God, though it isn't wise to trust Him too much. You must trust the reliability of your free will. For it is appointed unto man once to die, and after that --no hope.

9. And here's the heartbreaker: Jesus loves all the little children of the world -- red and yellow, black and white. Are they precious in His sight? Yes -- they are precious until they reach the age of accountability.

This is excerpted from:

http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/Char...rlesSlagle.html

[Guest LadyC]

God's love IS unconditional, and is extended to everyone, believer or unbeliever. However, His judgement is ALSO unconditional, and it's up to us to follow the Lord, or live (or die) with the consequences of our choices.

The selected text you posted may be a bit confusing to people who read it, without understanding the context in which it was written. I hope you don't mind, but I'm taking the liberty to quote one of the paragraphs following that list:

Talk about agony! Problem was, at the time I had no adequate SCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION for the kind of "Father of tender mercies" I was hearing from and conveying in my speaking and writing. So yes, my understanding of the Lord had finally evolved into something beautiful. But was it too beautiful? That's what disturbed me -- it was only the "beautiful" side of God that gave me any hope whatsoever! What I dared not do was to think much about His austere aspects, His judgments -- at least as tradition has taught us to perceive them. For in my framework of understanding there was no hope in God's judgments. Not for despairing people who could not hope or people who are not in the "elect." (Depending on whether my tortured mind was laboring under the despair of Arminianism or Calvinism.)

[WayneB]

God's love IS unconditional, and is extended to everyone, believer or unbeliever. However, His judgement is ALSO unconditional, and it's up to us to follow the Lord, or live (or die) with the consequences of our choices.

Good answer LadyC.

OneAccord, you asked us two questions, one in your title and the other in the body of your post.

You asked us in your title about God

[SisterT-Enduring2TheEnd]

Tentmakers is a universalist website! 'Nuff said!!!

God's love IS unconditional, and is extended to everyone, believer or unbeliever. However, His judgement is ALSO unconditional, and it's up to us to follow the Lord, or live (or die) with the consequences of our choices.

Amen!

[OneAccord]

My concern is not so much the endless debates among Christians about OSAS or not, but rather that this is the message that Christianity is presenting to the world, those outside. It's the Good News BUT message, or the Good News IF message. The lost sheep, those without Christ, are looking in at Christianity and this is the message they are given, it's a turn-off to many, and a poor witness, and a distortion of God's true, faithful, steadfast and unfailing AGAPE LOVE for all of us, saved and lost alike. For God so loved the WORLD.

Also, even those IN Christ are wrestling with a pretty confusing message.... God loves me IF (legalism); God loves me BUT (I might screw up and get sent to hell). God loves US, but what about THEM???? You know, those condemned people, worldly people, sinners who refuse to repent and God already knows that they aren't going to repent....

I think Christians should consider these kinds of questions, because the people who ask them deserve answers.

[Guest LadyC]

if witnessed properly, it is not a "good news IF" or "good news BUT" situation. it's a "the good news is this" message.

"the good news is that, despite the fact that [you/we/i] sin by [shacking up/ having homosexual relations/lie/cuss/steal/cheat/etc], God has promised to help us overcome our sinful desires, if [you/we/i] will only lay it at the foot of the cross on a daily basis... and has promised that if [you/we/i] believe in Him, and abide in Him, [you/we/i] can have eternal life."

it's all a matter of presentation. you can't only give them the rosey picture, you have to give them the entire picture. God is a God of love and mercy, but He is also a God of justice. we don't dare let people think that there are no consequences for a Christian's unrepented sin, and we don't dare teach them God's love supercedes certain sins. instead, you help them understand what sin is, and teach them where to go to lay down that sin.... the foot of the cross.

[WayneB]

OnAccord, we have already debated this to dust. I have mostly the same concerns that you do, which is the lost will receive a twisted view of Christianity. I just have a different understanding in regards to this particular doctrine. Regardless, both of us can still be effective witnesses for Christ leading the lost to the foot of the Cross and offering the Good News message that Jesus Christ, born of a virgin --- fully man and fully God --- suffered and died on a sinner's cross and on the third day was resurrected and ascended into Heaven to be with the Father. Through me, the Holy Spirit has witnessed to these Truths to many men in jail. Not one of them ever asked about OSAS or UES before they made their decision to follow Christ. All they needed to know was to confess and believe in Jesus Christ meant salvation and to love God means to obey Him.

Let us let this go for now, please.

Blessings brother,

Wayne

[WayneB]

God loves US, but what about THEM???? You know, those condemned people, worldly people, sinners who refuse to repent and God already knows that they aren't going to repent....

.

I have an idea.

Instead of endlessly debating doctrine, why don't we all share what we as individuals are doing to reach these condemned people. Do you have a ministry? Do you go on mission trips? What have you experienced personally? Is it boasting? NO, it is not as long as the gloryis given to God.

Interested? Do y'all want to start a new thread or should we continue with this one. Should it be another forum? Whatever y'all decide is fine with me. I'll even start with an experience I had a few years ago.

What do want to do OneAccord? Argue endlessly or share what works God is doing through us to reach His children.

Blessings,

Wayne

[OneAccord]

The man who wrote the above article/testimony which I only quoted in part, was a minister who had a suicidal breakdown and ended up on a psych ward because he was so tormented by the concept of eternal hell for his unsaved loved ones and also the nagging quesion of whether he was good enough to pass through the narrow gate. What do you tell someone like this, just drop it?? Just shut up and believe?

Whenever I try to have an open honest debate about some very pressing questions that I cannot seem to make a peace with, I pretty much run up against a brick wall, or I get branded heretic, or told I am dangerous and might infect baby Christians, or that I am being emotional---no feelings, just scripture, please. Why shouldn't someone get emotional about eternal torment, pray tell me?

[OneAccord]

God loves US, but what about THEM????