Who has read the "God is not great" by Christopher Hitchens

[Blessedone]

Personally, I don't know why a Christian would waste their time reading material put out by someone attacking the Christian faith? If I am going to take the time to read a book, I want it to be something of value, as my time is limited. I don't care about reading a book about why the author thinks "God is not great." The title alone tells me the book is a heretical piece of garbage.

By the way, when it comes down to someone arguing against the existence of God, or the God of the Bible, I don't have an open mind. The existence of Jehovah God is a settled reality with me, and no amount of reasoning from a non-believer will change that.

And the judgements came....so quickly. As expected, the faith turns to hate right away.

At least you weren't blind sided by it. What faith turned to hate? I am coming against a book that seems to be attacking the faith. Certainly that is why the title indicates. The God Christopher Hitchens serves may not be great, but that is not the case with my God who is the God of the Holy Bible.

The God of the Bible is the same God that man has created in His own image. He has created an egotistical,jealous,vengeful,merciless,sadistic and insecure persona of all the most negative traits of man. This image of God given to the world by christians has manifested countless wars,ignorance and utter pain to millions of people...and in the name of who may I ask?

My question is - without the Bible, how do you validate the existence of God? The problem is, without an absolute source for describing God's character, you inevitably have to turn to atheism or pantheism. It is impossible to be a theist (Jew, Christian, Muslim, Mormon, et al) while at the same time denying an absolute foundation for God or a god.

The reason for this is that, without an absolute standard, God becomes whoever we want Him to be on a personal level. You are opposed to the Biblical version of God, but you are opposed on literally no ground. This is an existential view of God, where God does not really come into being until we experience Him in a way we believe validates Him. This view does not cause conflict so long as you embrace anyone's view of God - however, at the point you reject a view of God, you must offer an absolute standard for the definition of God. This means that you are then removed from the process, it cannot be subjective, it cannot be experiential, and you must find an absolute standard.

As an example, if I say, "The earth is the ninth planet from the sun" and you say "The earth is the third planet from the sun," you are right and I am wrong. The reason for this is that we have an absolute frame of reference from which to work. My idea, though my idea, is still invalid. If, however, we were discussing Dali's "Persistence of Memory" and I said it was good, while you said it was awful, there is no real way to discuss who is correct. I have certain ideas that dictate what I think is good in art, while you have different ideas. The taste becomes subjective within a certain field and there is no absolute frame. In other words, you may not like a piece of art while I love it, but both opinions are valid and there is no way for me to say you are wrong and mean this with certainty.

If we apply this same standard to God, then it remains the same. If you do not like the God of the Bible, and lack an absolute standard upon which you can rely (remember, personal experience is not absolute), though you may not like the God of the Bible, you cannot make this a valid opinion. You cannot say the wars caused by this God are wrong because you have no absolute reference to how it would be wrong.

Thus, even though you claim Christ, by your own philosophy - whether you realize it or not - you are essentially an unbeliever. I think the moderators made a wise choice in moving you to that category. By word you might be a Christian, but operationally you are an unbeliever.

I won't discuss the believer status not more since it gives certain people pleasure to demote me. Wars are wrong period,reference or not.There is no need for an absolute standard to base oneself on to understand evil/good. You can have goodness in you without following absolute standards. I am glad that is Almighty who decides my status in the end.

[Blessedone]

If admitting to foolishness as...YES I AM A NONBELIEVER will give you peace of mind. Fine as you please but my personal truth and life decision won't change because of you and the same should apply to you. My ideas should not be enough to turn away anybody and their God. Because of a limited mind people don't get along and therefore drag their Gods with them and create harmful discorse. To reason and give others a change to reason freely regardless of being right or wrong I think would not be such a terrible act in the eyes of God.

And what god might that be? You have stated your disbelief in the God of the Bible, so I don't know what god you are refering to?

not the the god invented by man

Hey now....I never invented anybody.

There was that imaginary friend when I was 4, but his name was Carlos.

Anyway....

thank you you are the only voice of irony i've seen this whole time

[apothanein kerdos]

Wars are wrong period,reference or not.There is no need for an absolute standard to base oneself on to understand evil/good. You can have goodness in you without following absolute standards.

Let's break this down.

You say wars are wrong, but based on what standard? How do you know wars are wrong?

You say I can understand good and evil, but based on what? If I steal from you, how do you really know it's wrong?

[Blessedone]

Wars are wrong period,reference or not.There is no need for an absolute standard to base oneself on to understand evil/good. You can have goodness in you without following absolute standards.

Let's break this down.

You say wars are wrong, but based on what standard? How do you know wars are wrong?

You say I can understand good and evil, but based on what? If I steal from you, how do you really know it's wrong?

I take it you are referencing the 10 commandmends as the standard of what is good or what is evil and these are the words written by God given to Moses. Nothing else such as rape, genocide and the spreading of disease...and I forgot pedofilia, incest and SLAVERY. How is it that we know that these human inclinations are evil?.How can slavery be good?,murder? the old testament is filled with such acts.These acts described by the words of God?....Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.....An eye for an eye. Yet God is LOVE. Sounds like a human to me.

[apothanein kerdos]

Wars are wrong period,reference or not.There is no need for an absolute standard to base oneself on to understand evil/good. You can have goodness in you without following absolute standards.

Let's break this down.

You say wars are wrong, but based on what standard? How do you know wars are wrong?

You say I can understand good and evil, but based on what? If I steal from you, how do you really know it's wrong?

I take it you are referencing the 10 commandmends as the standard of what is good or what is evil and these are the words written by God given to Moses. Nothing else such as rape, genocide and the spreading of disease...and I forgot pedofilia, incest and SLAVERY. How is it that we know that these human inclinations are evil?.How can slavery be good?,murder? the old testament is filled with such acts.These acts described by the words of God?....Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.....An eye for an eye. Yet God is LOVE. Sounds like a human to me.

You never answered my question. How do you know slavery, rape, and things of this nature are wrong? How do you know that any of what you described is actually wrong?

[nebula]

Blessedone -

I would still like to know why you called yourself a Christian in the OP?

[Blessedone]

Wars are wrong period,reference or not.There is no need for an absolute standard to base oneself on to understand evil/good. You can have goodness in you without following absolute standards.

Let's break this down.

You say wars are wrong, but based on what standard? How do you know wars are wrong?

You say I can understand good and evil, but based on what? If I steal from you, how do you really know it's wrong?

I take it you are referencing the 10 commandmends as the standard of what is good or what is evil and these are the words written by God given to Moses. Nothing else such as rape, genocide and the spreading of disease...and I forgot pedofilia, incest and SLAVERY. How is it that we know that these human inclinations are evil?.How can slavery be good?,murder? the old testament is filled with such acts.These acts described by the words of God?....Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.....An eye for an eye. Yet God is LOVE. Sounds like a human to me.

You never answered my question. How do you know slavery, rape, and things of this nature are wrong? How do you know that any of what you described is actually wrong?

We both know what the other means....let's not go round in circles. We both have a cetain amount of understanding, beating each other with words hides the real meaning here. I do not play a game with what I believe and surely neither do you.If you want to speak of laws (old testament) and base it all in words,facts thats fine, but the spirit behind the words, the meaning that true eyes can see and a true heart can feel is what God is about. His essence,the breath of life that he gave us all speaks for itself and guards us....the ones that truly see and listen to HIM. This meaning is the beloved message from Jesus to us.Spirit instead of the laws of man.

[Guest man]

To know oneself is a life's goal because in doing so you find God.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but there is a little bit of truth here.

[apothanein kerdos]

Wars are wrong period,reference or not.There is no need for an absolute standard to base oneself on to understand evil/good. You can have goodness in you without following absolute standards.

Let's break this down.

You say wars are wrong, but based on what standard? How do you know wars are wrong?

You say I can understand good and evil, but based on what? If I steal from you, how do you really know it's wrong?

I take it you are referencing the 10 commandmends as the standard of what is good or what is evil and these are the words written by God given to Moses. Nothing else such as rape, genocide and the spreading of disease...and I forgot pedofilia, incest and SLAVERY. How is it that we know that these human inclinations are evil?.How can slavery be good?,murder? the old testament is filled with such acts.These acts described by the words of God?....Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.....An eye for an eye. Yet God is LOVE. Sounds like a human to me.

You never answered my question. How do you know slavery, rape, and things of this nature are wrong? How do you know that any of what you described is actually wrong?

We both know what the other means....let's not go round in circles. We both have a cetain amount of understanding, beating each other with words hides the real meaning here. I do not play a game with what I believe and surely neither do you.If you want to speak of laws (old testament) and base it all in words,facts thats fine, but the spirit behind the words, the meaning that true eyes can see and a true heart can feel is what God is about. His essence,the breath of life that he gave us all speaks for itself and guards us....the ones that truly see and listen to HIM. This meaning is the beloved message from Jesus to us.Spirit instead of the laws of man.

How do you know He even exists though? It's not a word game, you're avoiding the entire point. How can you be sure of morality or God without an absolute reference?

[Blessedone]

Wars are wrong period,reference or not.There is no need for an absolute standard to base oneself on to understand evil/good. You can have goodness in you without following absolute standards.

Let's break this down.

You say wars are wrong, but based on what standard? How do you know wars are wrong?

You say I can understand good and evil, but based on what? If I steal from you, how do you really know it's wrong?

I take it you are referencing the 10 commandmends as the standard of what is good or what is evil and these are the words written by God given to Moses. Nothing else such as rape, genocide and the spreading of disease...and I forgot pedofilia, incest and SLAVERY. How is it that we know that these human inclinations are evil?.How can slavery be good?,murder? the old testament is filled with such acts.These acts described by the words of God?....Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.....An eye for an eye. Yet God is LOVE. Sounds like a human to me.

You never answered my question. How do you know slavery, rape, and things of this nature are wrong? How do you know that any of what you described is actually wrong?

We both know what the other means....let's not go round in circles. We both have a cetain amount of understanding, beating each other with words hides the real meaning here. I do not play a game with what I believe and surely neither do you.If you want to speak of laws (old testament) and base it all in words,facts thats fine, but the spirit behind the words, the meaning that true eyes can see and a true heart can feel is what God is about. His essence,the breath of life that he gave us all speaks for itself and guards us....the ones that truly see and listen to HIM. This meaning is the beloved message from Jesus to us.Spirit instead of the laws of man.

How do you know He even exists though? It's not a word game, you're avoiding the entire point. How can you be sure of morality or God without an absolute reference?

I have been asked the same question by all kinds of people and I am sorry that my anwsers are not enough for you,but they are for me and this conversation that you have let me continue with you has let me know that I am closer to my idea of God than what I thought and its okay if it doesn't make sense to anyone. Because of the mind of the world of humans elevated egos that just confuses peoples hearts its hard to let God's voice speak. Yes I think he speaks to us of all in His own way and in the way that we can best handle it. I awnser the same way I just did with no absolute reference at all. At the same time I do not think that my way is the only way or that anybody is less in the eyes of God I don't pretend to assume how far His love goes. HE will find those that LOVE and keep them regardless of how much they know or not. Thank you for lasting for so long in this conversation I must go and have dinner, take care.