Odd ponderings

[nebula]

Well, knowing the way discussions on the Board go, I will probably regret posting this....

But I was contemplating an add fact.

When "science" talks about the "evolution" of man, they note the development of tools and fire.

Oddly, the Bible doesn't mention these in the history of man.

However, the Bible mentions "the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock" (Gen. 4:20), "the father of all who play the harp and flute" (Gen. 4:21) and "who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron" (Gen. 4:22).

Science doesn't seem to pay any attention to the "evolution" of music into mankind. Odd, because music is such a part of our lives, yet music doesn't fit into any evolutionary time frame or significance.

Odd.

[apothanein kerdos]

But what advantage does music give us? That's the point Nebula is asking. What advantage does complexities in symphony offer us in survival? Other animals have "music" and "culture," but to equate that to humans is to equate a first graders knowledge of addition and subtraction to an engineer. Our culture and music surpass the animal's, likewise ours is not based on survival or mating (as theirs is). Ours is simply for enjoyment (unless, of course, you're listening to Barry White...then it might be for mating).

[apothanein kerdos]

But what advantage does music give us? That's the point Nebula is asking. What advantage does complexities in symphony offer us in survival? Other animals have "music" and "culture," but to equate that to humans is to equate a first graders knowledge of addition and subtraction to an engineer. Our culture and music surpass the animal's, likewise ours is not based on survival or mating (as theirs is). Ours is simply for enjoyment (unless, of course, you're listening to Barry White...then it might be for mating).

Music does not need to be an aid to survival in order to be part of evolution, it would be a natural response to a larger brain, as people became more adapt at survival and each day was no longer a fight for food and safety, we would begin to question our surroundings, and ourselves

not all animal culture or music is for mating or survival, for example funeral right type of behavior exhibited by chimps

Isn't that just "evolution of the gaps" though?

"Well, it doesn't provide an advantage, which means it contradicts natural selection...but it's still evolution."

[nebula]

the evolution was increased brain size

And brain size increased . . . why?

and thus curiosity and invention.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea how complex the brain is? Have you studied brain neural processing at all? Do you have any idea how many different brain centers have to coordinate together in order to produce art - imagination, thought, processing, functioning?

You make it sound like it was simple logic steps progressing from "non-existant" to existant - as if evolution were "guided" by logic.

But think hard about this. Do you know how many changed an organism would have to go through in order to just be able to have the ability to talk, not to mention the increase in neural centers and processings in order to coordinate speech and produce and coordinate sounds that put thoughts into words? I'll give you a hint - do a study on the hyoid bone and please explain how hominids went from no hyoid bone to having one? Then do a little research on brain functioning and speech. You can begin by telling me how many regions of the brain are involved.

So, once you have that understanding, please explain to me how increased brain size would naturally turn into creativity - the thought, the process and the function?

As hominids no longer had to use their curiosity to fashion tools and techniques for survival, they began to become curios about themselves and the world. Leading to arts and music.

No longer had to use curiosity for survival?

Since when did that ever stop?

As I've studied the "evolution of man", what I see are creatures that would never have survived had not they had these higher processes of learning.

But all this is another debate.

I'm just very puzzled at your thought process here.

[nebula]

Nebula, your challenges and quizzes are irrelevant. You are pointing to holes in this discourse, as though these holes disprove the whole premise of evolution. Is this what you are hoping to show? Or only that you object to the way SDSJap has formulated his argument?

No, just pointing out how how critical analyzer needs to view evolutionary arguments.

Lots of changes. Lots and lots and lots. Evolution through natural selection takes place on an unfathomable scale, thousands of millions of years from the origin of life to our brightest thinkers and musicians. The changes were imperceptibly gradual, and the time scale was monumental.

Like a bone developing for no reason on top of the larynx and muscles just naturally beginning to attach to it to give the bone purpose?

As hominids no longer had to use their curiosity to fashion tools and techniques for survival, they began to become curios about themselves and the world. Leading to arts and music.

No longer had to use curiosity for survival?

Since when did that ever stop?

Regrettably, and only in some people, the moment they began to rely on faith and scripture for absolute truth and stopped relying on observation, experimentation and rational analysis.

Boy did you jump from point A to point Z!

Tell me plainly, please - when did hominids no longer have to use curiosity to fashion tools and techniques for survival?

Every recorded age of man shows man developing new and better tools, so I fail to see how any of this need for creativity to survive began to end.

Again, from what discoveries of seen of early homo species, if they did not posess the creativity first, they would not have survived, for physically they were clearly inferior to the other animals.

[nebula]

left planum temporale superior temporal parietal region VI lobule of posterior cerebellum anterior superior temporal gyrus left and right premotor cortex, and planum polare, did i miss any?

Good, now can you explain how they function together?

It's quite complicated.

Speech is almost impossible to trace in the fossil record because the brain and almost all of the neccesary traits are in soft tissue, now we can measure the hypoglossal canal to determine an approixmate for how skilled the tounge was in movement, early homo sapiens and neanderthals all were equal to modern humans. Same thing goes for the The thoracic vertebral canal which controls the diaphram. Also neccesary for speech is the ability to understand it, which means you have to be able to hear between 1 and 4 khz, which Homo heidelbergensis, a cousin to neandthals, could. Which means the common ancestor between Humans and Neandthals is likely the species where speech developed

Actually, all you really need is to find the hyoid bone, for without this bone as an anchor to the tongue, speach cannot be formed. Not to long ago, scientists concluded that Neanderthals could indeed communicate with speach of some sort when they found a Neanderthal skeleton with a hyoid bone.

when a species has developed and learned techniques that allow easy access to more than enough food for survival, that species no longer is required to place all mental powers towards developing technology to survive, we see it even today, what was the great play, book, song, art peice to come out of ethiopia?

I can accept that when an individual no longer has to spend his day searching for food, etc. that he can spend more time philosophising and creating art.

However, this is not how evolution works. Evolution occurs when an isolated population deviates genetically from the main branch of the population. For music creativity to evolve, it would take a population to be isolated for millions of years in an environment where the need for survival was taken care of, wouldn't it?

And of course, this kind of change is not taking something that is there and improving on it; this would be taking something that is not there and forming into something completely new. I do not mean an increase in the number of neurons, but whatever it is that causes certain neurons to process a certain way resultin in a certain output.

Art is an outlet of emotion. That's why we love it so much. It is so a part of our lives that art cannot be separated from humanity. There is not a single human society that does not have evidence of some form of art with it. There would be those who argue that we could not function without the outlet of art.

What your argument tells me is that you have a preconceived belief for how things should function and then fit the presented data neatly into that function without truly critically analyzing the situation. Which is to say that you are guilty of doing the exact same thing you accuse Christians of doing. The irony is that we have no problem admiting our foundation; whereas you can't.

[nebula]

they fastened new tools yes, but just like modern humans are not all focusing on designing the next big invention in field cultivation, when a group of homonids were able to sustain themselves and did not have to worry about starvation each day, naturally they would have begun to wonder about differant things

I am talking groups over thousands of years, you are talking species, so yes each species HAD to have curiosity about survival in order to survive not every individual needed it all the time

In recorded history, has there been a population of humans living free for thousands of years without the need to worry about fighting for survival?

Were these early homonids free from territorial control issues, leader dominance issues, and natural disasters any less than we have been since the beginning of recorded history?

So how could there be a population living in such freedom from turmoil long enough for art to form in this way?

[nebula]

Nebula, your challenges and quizzes are irrelevant. You are pointing to holes in this discourse, as though these holes disprove the whole premise of evolution. Is this what you are hoping to show?

BTW, I am not so naieve as to think evolution can be dissproved so simply.

However, I would like to see proponents of strict evolution actually think critically about their beliefs for a change.

[Guest]

How am i fitting anything into a preconceived notion? I have given science that is supported by fact and observation

Got Lab

Showing Elder Crab

Becoming Mr. Blab

No? Too Sad

Forgive My Fun.

Facts And Observations Have No More Place In Evolutionarily Musings That The Divine Creator Does.

Important Things Your Neighborhood Evolutionist Neglects To Share!

Hosanna!

Things That Will Predict Your Future When Time Stops And All Things Become New And All Is Right And True And Justice Was Served.

I Can Hardly Wait.

Maranatha!

I Pray To See You When The Crowns Are Passed Out And Eternity Begins.

Hosanna!

All Sin

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiah 1:18

True Transformation

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

New Species

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2 Corinthians 5:17-18

The LORD Jesus Christ Who Created All And Still Came Down From Heaven So So Far

Beyond Time And Space

The Sinless Became Sin

That Man Might Believe

And Be Saved

Here Comes The Judge

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 7:9-10

Be Blessed

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[nebula]

first off, i think i have shown that i understand the brain sufficiently enough to not go into detail about how it works.

Because brain anatomy (naming parts) is easy.

Brain physiology?

secondly the hyoid apparatus is not even a uniquely human thing, it is just specialised in humans more than in other animals. someone who claims to understand evolution i imagine would know that(to my knowledge) every animal with a tounge and a jaw has something similar to the hyoid bone. SO i guess maybe i dont understand if youre asking how did the hyoid come to this specialization or if you really didnt know that the hyoid bone is not uniquely human

Hmmm, OK, I didn't exactly notice any hyoid apparatus in the cats we dissected, but OK.

Well, since you seem to know so much, can you tell me how it is that a cat purrs?

(That's supposed to be tongue-in-cheed, BTW.)

music IS NOT EVOLUTION it is a PRODUCT of it, music art etc are not expressed only in humans but in many primates for emotional reasons. Much like chimps have funeral rights close to those of humans, they have music and art. Neanderthals had music and art. etc

In what way do chimps have funeral rights? Eulogies or burying the dead?

How am i fitting anything into a preconceived notion? I have given science that is supported by fact and observation

You are taking an observed fact and saying, "See - it evolved!"

I'm a nit-picky, detail-oriented person, and that answer doesn't cut it.

Your explanation requires thousands of years of an isolated population to be unhindered from pursuing and developing creativity, yet that explanation fails to fit with any known reality.