Israel/ Holy Ground

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shiloh,

Why did I know you would not believe me? So what do you think of these verses:

Luke 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

Luke 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

Luke 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

Luke 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Guess what happened to the "fig tree"?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest shiloh357]

Why did I know you would not believe me?

I did not believe you because you misapplied the Scriptures and read into them what you wanted them to say. You ignored the actual lesson they taught, and made up something on your own. You essentially used poor hermeneutics as you do with the following passage as well.

So what do you think of these verses:

Luke 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

Luke 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

Luke 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

Luke 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.Guess what happened to the "fig tree"?

Again as before, Christ is not talking about Israel. Just hint here D.E.: Just because a fig tree is mentioned does NOT mean the subject is Israel. Nothing indicates that the picture is of Israel. You need to let the Bible speak for itself. This passage is actually a excellent picture of Christ's intercession. It shows that Christ holds out hope for those most others would have given up on. The last verse shows that even belated repentance can bring salvation. It also shows that His patience is not eternal and that if one remains in their sorry state, that the judgement that results will be deserved. As far as what happened to the fig tree, I don't know and neither do you. That is beside the point of the parable though. I am sure you would like to say it didn't bare fruit and thus must be like Israel, but you do not have any biblical basis for such things.

Again, if God cursed Israel, then He would not bother with them today. The fact that He is bringing them back and building them up is nothing short of miraculous considering how far they have come in 56 years. The fig tree would not put forth leaves if it were cursed as you say. So, the very presence of the state of Israel pretty much puts the whole "God cursed the Jews" canard to death.

[Guest yod]

That sure is not the Israel of today. 99% of the Jews there are anti-christ, aetheist, spiritist or just don't give a hoot.

DE...have you ever been to Israel? You are making the weirdest conclusions based on hearsay.

There is a certified MIRACLE happening right in front of your eyes but you don't see it. It's amazing because I know you have studied the Word more than most people on this board.

Remeber how the Pharisees knew the Word better than the Galileans who walked with Jesus? All the simple Galileans knew was that this Rabbi could do the impossible. You are looking at the circumstance without seeing the impossible things which are happening RIGHT NOW.

It is precisely BECAUSE this is impossible in man's eyes that the Lord WILL bring a revival to Israel...to the jews...and to the Arabs.

It's coming.....to the HOLY land. You will see it in your lifetime.

So, the very presence of the state of Israel pretty much puts the whole "God cursed the Jews" canard to death

Good point Shilo.

I find that DE applies a standard to the jews that doesn't apply anywhere else. They can't be forgiven or redeemed for backsliding that happened 2 millennia ago. Yet the church gets a pass????

It's inconsistant with his character (Because I know he sincerely desires the salvation of the jews) but he interprets prophecy with a "western" christian slant

How about this one?

ISAIAH 44:22

"I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud and your sins like a heavy mist. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you."

Hmmmm.....He has wiped out their sins before they return to Him?

Maybe He better see if that's OK with DE !!!

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod & Shiloh,

How sad that you both do not understand the relevance of the "fig tree". It is mentioned at least 13 times in the Gospels - ALL 4 Gospels. I know that when the Apostles penned these Gospels, they understood the special significance Jesus was placing upon the "fig tree" for truly every instance recorded revealed something about Israel. You have to remember that there was much that was NOT written in the Gospels, but those events involving the Fig Tree had very special attention given to them by the Apostles.

I shall repeat myself again: Jesus said:

John 8:28-29 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus only did that which He saw the Father doing and what pleased the Father. Jesus WAS NOT a showman, He DID NOT perform "miracles" for the "sake" of "dazzling" His audience. Every miracle that Jesus did had very special significance because it was the Father that was working IN HIM to perform them. Jesus DID NOT HAVE to "curse the fig tree" to demonstrate in parable fashion that "greater things than these shall ye do." That is the MOST STUPIDEST of explanations one might imagine. There were so many "other" even greater, miracles that Jesus performed in the course of events that would have better served that purpose.

The miracles that Jesus performed was to reveal the deep passion God had for the people of "faith". How many times do you see this resounder: "Oh such great faith, What little faith, if ye had the faith of a mustard seed, etc. etc." That is "faith in God" which Jesus promoted. He did not come just to perform "signs and wonders" for the people. He sharply rebuked His own mother when she came to Him with a request to provide more wine at Cana. This was perhaps the only time that Jesus was coerced into doing something He did not receive directly from the Father, yet as He did it, that whole story, if one were to dig into it has very special signifiance, from the water that was used which was very special to the fine wine that came from it. I have heard the story of this miracle and it really stirs your heart.

In any case, you two need to examine ALL the mentions of the "fig tree" in the Gospels and relate them to Israel. THEN you will know the truth and hopefully the truth shall set you free.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings once again Yod and Shiloh,

How about visiting this site:

http://johnmyers.com/bible14.html

It explains the "fig tree" in a much better way than I did.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod and Shiloh,

You may also want to visit Matthew Henry's Commentary:

http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC42013.HTM

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

In any case, you two need to examine ALL the mentions of the "fig tree" in the Gospels and relate them to Israel. THEN you will know the truth and hopefully the truth shall set you free.

first of all...the "fig tree" part of this conversation had nothing to do with me.

You will never see me making theology from a parable. That whole excercise is silly to me. Parables are not reliable for anything but object lessons so there is no need for me to be convinced of either position.

My own opinion is much like yours DE except for the degree of that curse.

I think it was a lesson about Israel being cursed for not showing fruit. You and I differ greatly on this lesson though....I don't think it was an ETERNAL curse. I think the destruction of the Temple and subsequent dispersion into the nations was the fulfillment of that curse. Moses mentioned it also in the Torah

They would be dispersed into all the nations but would ultimately come back to their land. The "curse" was for the purpose of discipline...not utter rejection.

This is where I think you & I reach a different conclusion.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus DID NOT HAVE to "curse the fig tree" to demonstrate in parable fashion that "greater things than these shall ye do." That is the MOST STUPIDEST of explanations one might imagine. There were so many "other" even greater, miracles that Jesus performed in the course of events that would have better served that purpose.

No, he did not have to use this in parable fashion to demonstrate faith, but he did. After they saw the fig tree in its withered state, Jesus said: Matthew 21:21

And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith, and do not doubt, you shall not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it shall happen. So, Jesus was using this demonstrate faith to His disciples. You can say that this is the "stupidest" exlplanation imaginable, but that is the explanation Jesus gave. I guess you need to explain to HIM why He is explanation is so stupid. Again, the parable is explained by Jesus and he fails to connect it to Israel.

If EVERY SINGLE reference to the fig tree is about Israel, how does John 1:48, 50 represent Israel? John 1:48

Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."

John 1:50

Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You shall see greater things than these."

Or, how about these verses? How do they picture Israel? Where is the direct reference to Israel in the following?: James 3:12

Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Neither can salt water produce fresh.

Rev. 6:13

and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

To say that you can point to Israel in every reference of a fig tree is ridiculous. Especially, when it comes to the curses. Jesus makes only one direct reference to Israel being like fig tree. He is specific and it is unquestionable (Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:28) However, the parable of Luke 13:6-9 is never explained by Jesus or any apostle as having to do with Israel. To say that the fig tree represents Israel in that parable is nothing more than conjecture. The Bible is its own best commentary. If it were about Israel, Jesus would have come right out and said it. I do believe Israel has been punished for its unbelief. Punishment is different than cursing though. There are no grounds for saying that the Jews are under God's curse.

Why is it that Jews seem to be the only ones that God is cursing for unbelief? I don't hear anyone saying these things about the Hindus in India, or the Buddhists of Thailand, or the Shintos of Japan. How about the Tibetan Monks? Is God cursing them for their unbelief? The gospel has come to those countries and they have killed many God's messengers. Yet, I never hear of anyone saying that they are cursed of God. In fact, if I got up in a church and called Hindus, and Buddhists cursed by God, I would not be warmly recieved. I would be percieved as hateful and unChristian. If however, I were to say that Jews are cursed by God for rejecting Christ, then I would be considered theologically "balanced." A strange doublestandard.

[Guest yod]

all good points Shilo

You have made me re-evaluate how I have heard this parable taught

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod & Shiloh,

Boy Yod, your last comment to Shiloh reminds me about "every wind of doctrine". Especially after your prior post. You are wrong about me Yod, I do not believe the "curse" upon Israel is FOREVER, for in the last days, even today in my belief, ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.

Shiloh, I was hoping you would introduce the scriptures about Nathanael. I think I wrote a post a short while back on this very subject. Something I had uncovered while perusing the WEB. It seems that it was customary in those days for men to find a fig tree under which to study or to contemplate or just to pray. Fig trees were plentiful, as can be noted by the "cursed fig tree", that had grown alongside the road and no one in particular owned it. Anyway, a comment was made by Jesus of Nathanael:

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Here is Gr. word for "guile":

1388 dolos {dol'-os}

from an obsolete primary verb, dello (probably meant to decoy; cf 1185);; n m

AV - guile 7, subtilty 2, deceit 2, craft 1; 12

1) craft, deceit, guile

We know in Romans Paul speaks of those who are of "true Israel". In similar fashion Jesus says: "Behold an Israelite INDEED." This is the significance of the Fig Tree in that story. Contrast this with the Pharisees and the Sadducees who strutted around thinking they were better than everyone else and who persisted in their struggle to see Jesus killed. Also contrast Nathaniel with the idea of a "stiff necked people".

Did either of you by chance read the web pages I provided? I am certainly not alone in my interpretation of the fig tree. Men much more afluent in the scriptures than I have already reached that conclusion long before me. Your own blind biasness gets in the way of you listening to the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie