Were there 2 liars at the fall or just 1?

[firehill]

If the following verse, Genesis 1:29, is true that God gave them EVERY tree for food that has fruit with seed in it, and we know there was a prohibition on the tree of knowledge of good and evil therefore the tree they were prohibited from eating couldn't have had fruit with seed in it. Otherwise God would not have said I give you EVERY tree THAT HAS fruit with seed in it.

Therefore this verse too along with the woman's testimony shows that God did prohibit BOTH from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Then God said, "I give you (PLURAL) every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

[EricH]

If the following verse, Genesis 1:29, is true that God gave them EVERY tree for food that has fruit with seed in it, and we know there was a prohibition on the tree of knowledge of good and evil therefore the tree they were prohibited from eating couldn't have had fruit with seed in it. Otherwise God would not have said I give you EVERY tree THAT HAS fruit with seed in it.

Therefore this verse too along with the woman's testimony shows that God did prohibit BOTH from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Then God said, "I give you (PLURAL) every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

Still not following how this proves God told her not to touch it in addtion to not eating form it

[inhistime]

Here the prohibition is given in a different way since they were both given the freedom to eat from every tree except the tree which did not have fruit yielding seed. In these words from God himself, we can understand that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not have fruit that yields seed. So God gave the prohibition to both of them in a different manner. Did he also give the prohibition to Eve using words that told her not to touch the fruit? She said he did and we should believe her. Why should we believe her? Because the deception had not yet started.

This is where I interpret the facts differently than you. Satan's initial statment to Eve is a statement of deception in genesis 3:1. The context of the passage paints a picture of Eve decending into deception from that point on. I just don't see how your interpretation fits the text, the context, or the logic of the passage. For me you are largely arguing from silence.

No, my friend, you are the one arguing from silence. I have not added that the deception started with the question. There is nothing in the text nor is there anything in what Paul says about Eve to even suggest that Eve was in deception just by the serpent's question. That is not logical and it is an argument from silence.

Now let us look at what the bible does say about how she was deceived.

Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

When did the woman see that the tree was good for food? AFTER she was told that it was good food and AFTER she was told that it would make her wise. This is the result of her listening to the deception. This is the first time she looks at the food in a good way. We must listen to scripture and accept that this happened after the deceiver gave her his lie and not before when he merely asked a question.

I do accept that you want to prove your point because you honestly believe it to be so, however you cannot do so without evidence. Scripture gives us the evidence of what Eve THOUGHT and what she DID and it was AFTER she answered the question and not before. That is not an argument from silence, this is God's word revealing the thoughts of her heart and her motive and her actions.

Edited July 11, 2007 by inhistime

[inhistime]

If the following verse, Genesis 1:29, is true that God gave them EVERY tree for food that has fruit with seed in it, and we know there was a prohibition on the tree of knowledge of good and evil therefore the tree they were prohibited from eating couldn't have had fruit with seed in it. Otherwise God would not have said I give you EVERY tree THAT HAS fruit with seed in it.

Therefore this verse too along with the woman's testimony shows that God did prohibit BOTH from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Then God said, "I give you (PLURAL) every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

Still not following how this proves God told her not to touch it in addtion to not eating form it

What it does prove is that God did not give the prohibition only once. It also proves that Eve was given the prohibition in one form together with Adam.

God gives his prohibitions in different ways and at different times because repetition is for our safety. Paul said:

Php 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.

When God repeats himself in different ways and at different times it cannot be misunderstood. God told Adam that he was not to eat of the fruit of the tree of life or he would die. He told them both that they were not allowed to eat from any tree that did not have fruit with its seed in it. He then told Eve that she wasn't even to touch the fruit (probably out of curiosity because we know that women are curious!) because it would lead to her eating.

God certainly didn't treat women differently than men and give the man the prohibition but refuse to give his prohibition to the woman. No! We know that God gave the prohibition in Genesis 1:29 to both of them. Adam already had the prohibition given him before the woman was created and it is logical and reasonable that God gave the prohibition to Eve after her creation while Adam was still asleep from his surgery. God repeats himself and God has made sure that there is no doubt. The fruit from that tree - the fruit that has no seeds in it - was forbidden to them.

[firehill]

If the following verse, Genesis 1:29, is true that God gave them EVERY tree for food that has fruit with seed in it, and we know there was a prohibition on the tree of knowledge of good and evil therefore the tree they were prohibited from eating couldn't have had fruit with seed in it. Otherwise God would not have said I give you EVERY tree THAT HAS fruit with seed in it.

Therefore this verse too along with the woman's testimony shows that God did prohibit BOTH from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Then God said, "I give you (PLURAL) every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

Still not following how this proves God told her not to touch it in addtion to not eating form it

What it proves is that God gave the prohibition of not eating to her ALSO and NOT just Adam alone.

[firehill]

No, my friend, you are the one arguing from silence. I have not added that the deception started with the question. There is nothing in the text nor is there anything in what Paul says about Eve to even suggest that Eve was in deception just by the serpent's question. That is not logical and it is an argument from silence.

Now let us look at what the bible does say about how she was deceived.

Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

I was going there next too see what the bible said about her being deceived!

This is the first time she looks at the food in a good way.

I was going here too but you beat me to it!

[firehill]

Now I will also add this. Eve did not get the command as Adam did, unless it was later reveal to her by God AFTER He formed her. We do well to notice that Eve was formed after the command was given, as recorded in Chap 2 of Gen. I can't say the God did not tell her, but I am not so blind as to say Adam did not instruct his wife in God's desires.

Why would God not give the command to Adam while the woman was not created yet? What if he would have eaten of the tree because he weren't commanded not to do so before Eve was created? If then Adam ate because he was not prohibited to would God have created the woman from Adam's side in the state of knowing good and evil? i don't think so for that would not be a creature made in God's image in it's original state without the knowledge.

[firehill]

Now I will also add this. Eve did not get the command as Adam did, unless it was later reveal to her by God AFTER He formed her. We do well to notice that Eve was formed after the command was given, as recorded in Chap 2 of Gen. I can't say the God did not tell her, but I am not so blind as to say Adam did not instruct his wife in God's desires.

Why would God not give the command to Adam while the woman was not created yet? What if he would have eaten of the tree because he weren't commanded not to do so before Eve was created? If then Adam ate because he was not prohibited to would God have created the woman from Adam's side in the state of knowing good and evil? i don't think so for that would not be a creature made in God's image in it's original state without the knowledge.

As I said we cant be so blind as to say that Adam did not instruct his wife. We do see a progression and we must admit that.

Maybe you should read this entire thread. Can we be so blind as to not see Genesis 1:29? So stubborn as to not accept her testimony?

[None]

Honestly, I have not read this thread in full. What I will say is this. I dont feel Eve lied or added to. What it does look like is progression. We know from later revelaton in the Bible that death made man in thier fallen state unclean. What happen when Eve touched death...she took it in. For real I am just talking so I may get some 's and 's and maybe a few 's. We can say that is a fact that when man touched the fruit they died for they also took it in.

Now I will also add this. Eve did not get the command as Adam did, unless it was later reveal to her by God AFTER He formed her. We do well to notice that Eve was formed after the command was given, as recorded in Chap 2 of Gen. I can't say the God did not tell her, but I am not so blind as to say Adam did not instruct his wife in God's desires.

Another fine example of how God reveals truth in a story. Had Genesis made it clear that God DID tell Eve the same thing as Adam, and Eve STILL got it wrong, all blame would justifiably go on Eve for being the one who, clearly, messes everything up.

Fortunately for Eve, we cannot say that, with Scriptural accuracy, or that it was not Adam who misquoted God when he explained it to Eve.

[firehill]

Now I will also add this. Eve did not get the command as Adam did, unless it was later reveal to her by God AFTER He formed her. We do well to notice that Eve was formed after the command was given, as recorded in Chap 2 of Gen. I can't say the God did not tell her, but I am not so blind as to say Adam did not instruct his wife in God's desires.

Why would God not give the command to Adam while the woman was not created yet? What if he would have eaten of the tree because he weren't commanded not to do so before Eve was created? If then Adam ate because he was not prohibited to would God have created the woman from Adam's side in the state of knowing good and evil? i don't think so for that would not be a creature made in God's image in it's original state without the knowledge.

As I said we cant be so blind as to say that Adam did not instruct his wife. We do see a progression and we must admit that.

Maybe you should read this entire thread. Can we be so blind as to not see Genesis 1:29? So stubborn as to not accept her testimony?

I read something of what you said concerning Gen 1:29. I will say this, it would seem that the Tree of Knowledge did not have seed in it. How can death have a seed? But it still does not prove even when you attempt to to throw the YOU (PLURAL) in there, that God told Adam and Eve. All it shows is that He made the fruit with seed for man to eat.

I still think you should read the entire thread. Yes, ofcourse the tree didn't have seed in it. I didn't throw the PLURAL YOU in there. God said, "I give YOU (in the hebrew the pronoun is plural) every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.' And I'm quoting God and I'm not adding to his word! The verse says that God GAVE THEM EVERY tree that has fruit with seed in it. Therefore it shows that he did more than just make the trees for them to eat. In v.28 it says that 'God said to them'. In the next verse it says 'Then God said'. Therefore the prohibition was given to BOTH of THEM because God was still speaking to them. The prohibition of eating of the one tree is encompassed in what he told them they could eat.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;

male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.