Who is Israel?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

There several different views on the issue...

1) Some believe that Israel has been replaced by the Church and that God has no more dealings with the nation of Israel. -- Replacement Theology

2) There are some that Believe that God has two different plans of salvation for Jews and Gentiles. They believe Jews will be saved by Old Testament Covenant if they are faithful too it and Gentiles will be saved by faith in Christ or somewhat a mixture of both. The also see Jewish believers and Gentile believers are unequal in the eyes of God. They believe that Jews and Gentiles are separate, as under the old covenant, and that the Church is not for Jews but Gentiles only. Seperation Doctrine. -- Separation Theology

3) Then there are some that believe that salvation is by faith in Christ and that God has torn down the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile and that all believers both Jew and Gentile are both co-equal and belong to one body called the Church. They also believe that God still has plans to redeem the nation of Israel from its unbelief. They believe that the nation of Israel plays a vital role in the last days and that God has not forgot his promise to them. They believe that the New Covenant is Gods ultimate plan for mankind. --Co-equal Theology

I belong to the later.....and for the most part, most people agree with the later.

Can you let me know where you fall so I can know were your coming from.

Sort-of number 3.

Where I have reservations with "Co-equal" is when people say Jews who have come to faith in Messiah are no longer Jews and should forsake their culture and their way of worshiping God.

co-equalness should not be an issue to you then. We are all apart of the same body and the foot can't say to the hand I am more important then you or vise versa.

[firehill]

I've been reading alot of older threads on the same subject... Well I can't do rounds in this thread and I don't have the time. I will just say that I don't believe in replacement theology since no one was replaced. I believe there is no jew or gentile, slave or free, male or female in Christ and all are sons that have the same inheritance of the Promises given to Abraham.

My final words on the matter:

Jesus Christ died King of the Jews

He rose King of ALL ISREAL

Isreal then is all those who believe in him, Jew or gentile Abraham's decendants.

[Retrobyter]

There several different views on the issue...

1) Some believe that Israel has been replaced by the Church and that God has no more dealings with the nation of Israel. -- Replacement Theology

2) There are some that Believe that God has two different plans of salvation for Jews and Gentiles. They believe Jews will be saved by Old Testament Covenant if they are faithful too it and Gentiles will be saved by faith in Christ or somewhat a mixture of both. The also see Jewish believers and Gentile believers are unequal in the eyes of God. They believe that Jews and Gentiles are separate, as under the old covenant, and that the Church is not for Jews but Gentiles only. Seperation Doctrine. -- Separation Theology

3) Then there are some that believe that salvation is by faith in Christ and that God has torn down the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile and that all believers both Jew and Gentile are both co-equal and belong to one body called the Church. They also believe that God still has plans to redeem the nation of Israel from its unbelief. They believe that the nation of Israel plays a vital role in the last days and that God has not forgot his promise to them. They believe that the New Covenant is Gods ultimate plan for mankind. --Co-equal Theology

I belong to the later.....and for the most part, most people agree with the later.

Can you let me know where you fall so I can know were your coming from.

Sort-of number 3.

Where I have reservations with "Co-equal" is when people say Jews who have come to faith in Messiah are no longer Jews and should forsake their culture and their way of worshiping God.

co-equalness should not be an issue to you then. We are all apart of the same body and the foot can't say to the hand I am more important then you or vise versa.

Shalom, Jedi4Yahweh and friends.

I believe that you will find, if you look close, that there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile IN CHRIST, that is, IN THE MESSIAH! Outside of the Messiah, there's still a difference between Jew and Goyim (Gentile).

Gal 3:28

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

KJV

Gal 6:15-16

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

KJV

Eph 2:11-18

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

KJV

National Isra'el, although currently unbelievers, shall be rescued for the fathers' sake when the nation shall be "born in a day."

Isa 66:7-10

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

KJV

Rom 11:26-29

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

KJV

Paul asked in Romans 3:1, "What advantage then hath the Jew?" Gentile Christians would be quick to say, "NONE!" But, what did Paul say?

Rom 3:1-2

3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

KJV

He also said in Ephesians 2 above how much we were missing being "aliens from the commonwealth of Isra'el!"

We Gentile Christians need to recognize that Jews are not grafted into the "Church"; rather both we and believing Isra'el are grafted into the commonwealth of Isra'el! Let's not get the cart before the horse, here, and we will have a much easier time understanding how we and OT saints can be on the same par.

You see, the Kingdom of God is MORE than just the "Church!" While it's true that Gentile believers are part of God's Kingdom, Jewish Messianic believers were first and were promised the Kingdom before us! Furthermore, the Kingdom will also include all those who believe in every age, including OT saints! In addition to these, national Isra'el is not forgotten for the sake of the fathers (the Patriarchs). Now granted, some Jews will choose not to believe, but we are also told "all Isra'el shall be saved (rescued)." Therefore, it will be hard to ignore who the Messiah is when He comes back described as this:

Rev 19:11-16

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

KJV

Nor will it be easy to ignore the feats He accomplishes:

Zech 14:1-5

14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

KJV

So, suddenly the unbelieving Jews will become believing Jews because "seeing is believing!"

Furthermore, the Gentile nations who had dealings with Isra'el and believing Gentiles will be judged according to how they treated God's people (Matt. 25). Their nations, too, will be part of Yeshua`s Kingdom, even if only as tributary nations at first.

By the way, the term "church" is a dangerous word to use these days. So many are referring to the organization of the "Church" when they use the term as though it were an organism or an institution. The word "church" (Greek: ekkleesia) is a COLLECTIVE NOUN, much as we would use the words "flock," "pack," or "group." When we see the words "Christ loved the church," Paul is NOT talking about Him loving an organization or an institution! He loves PEOPLE! INDIVIDUALS! To even suggest that the church is a "whole that is greater than the sum of its parts" is WRONG! There's no Scriptural support for such a premise.

Retrobyter

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357

The Jews are not grafted into the Church. Part of the problem with our approach is that we live with an institution called "The Church" that was created when the Gentiles Christian leaders under the leadership of Constantine in the 4th century decided to make the break with the Jews both believers and nonbelievers alike.

Shiloh - in Ephesians 5:23, Paul writes, "For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body." He says that Jesus Christ is the head of the church. In Acts 2:38-41, the writer explains that

[Fraught]

now i must take issue however with your quote "we live with an institution called "The Church" that was. . ." No one is speaking of a worldly institution. I believe we would all agree that the church is THE BODY OF CHRIST AND NOTHING BUT THE BODY OF CHRIST. Now Christ has one body with many members and some are Jew and some are Gentile because we are fellow heirs with Jesus Christ and the reason we are heirs is because we are in his family!!! Now who was his original family? Descendants of Abraham but the descendants of Abraham are not joint heirs with Jesus Christ just because of their ancestry. It is clear that Jesus could raise up descendants for the inheritance from STONES if he couldn't find anybody else but praise his name he found us! And praise his mercy he can graft an unbeliever back in, be they Jew, Gentile, Hindu, Buddhist, Scientologist or Hari Krishna when they believe that Yeshua

Hey - what Shiloh was referring to was how things changed around the time of Constantine. Going into the details could hijack this thread into a completely separate debate that we don't want to get into. The bottom line is that "the Church" lost track of our Hebraic roots, and Christians began integrating more and more of their own culture into their faith. This is why we celebrate Christmas and Easter rather than Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles and the like.

Point Taken, Thank You

[Guest shiloh357]

The word "Church" is a tetonic word stemming from the Gaelic word for "circle" or "kirke." It has no etymological connection to the Greek word "ekklesia" nor the Hebrew word Kehilah, both of which are more accurate and do not necessarily convey the same meaning as our current usage of the word "church."

Is the

[Jedi4Yahweh]

The Kingdom of God is Israel, and Gentiles who join Messiah's ekklesia are joined to Israel/The Kingdom.

One way to read this is that the Gentile believers have now joined the common wealth of Israel or Gentile believers are now citizens of Israel. Not the nation of Israel but the Spiritual Kingdom of God. Now if I am a citizen that means I belong to that country. So if I was a born a Mexican and became a citizen of the United States legally I would now be an United States American.

So technically Christians are citizens of Israel we have joined the common wealth of Israel. Christians are spiritually citizens of Israel and can be called Israelites or Spiritual Israel.

Thanks for bringing that up....

[Vickilynn]

You may want to read shiloh's response again. He stated that Gentiles are not joint heirs with the Jews, But are Joint hiers with CHIRST. So again which is better. You may want to read Hebrews again and it talks all about the BETTER. You may not see the land as a type of Christ, but based on what it was for....it is a type.

Shalom Ruck,

YOU may want to read Shiloh's response in post #70 and YOU may want to read Romans.

What is better is to be in Messiah. Jew or Gentile. You are asking a non-issue question - choosing land or Messiah?

Gentiles cannot choose the land, it belongs to the literal Jews.

Jews and Gentiles can choose Messiah and belong to the Church.

However, Gentiles ARE grafted in to the Olive Tree (metaphor) which is Israel, to be Christians because Messiah is the holy root.

Well there are not two bodies. There is Israel. Gentiles are grafted into Israel. The Jews are not grafted into the Church.

Part of the confusion with the olive tree metaphor is that is a metaphor depicting a relationship pre-Constantine before there was an instution that was antagonistic to the Jews and set itself against them. It is impossible for the Gentiles to be grafted into Israel if God's real plan is to make the Gentiles into a different "Israel."

In Paul's metaphor, the olive tree is Israel from which some natura (Jewish branches) were broken off.

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Romans 11:24)

According to Paul the natural olive is the Jews' own olive tree. So yes, it does belong to them and you are grafted into their tree, like it or not.

[Guest shiloh357]

And again I say....Let the Jew's have the literal land...I will take Christ. Amen. Christ is the portion of mine inheritance, He is my dwelling place. Once again, and YOU may not agree, the land is a type of Christ. EVERYONE needs Christ. Without Christ, you have no LAND, NO INHERITANCE....Jew or Gentile. I love you sis, but it seems that you are barking up the wrong tree. I thank God that He set apart the Jews...how else could our Lord have come. But now its all about Him. The Jews are just a piece of the puzzle called Christ " filleth all in all". It's all about Christ, it has always been.

As for the typology... The Israelites entering the promised Land was a type of salvation.

My contention was that Israel was never used as a type of the Church. Those who argue that the modern Church is Israel cannot meet several standards for supporting that view.

1. I have demonstrated that "Jacob" is used interchangably with the term Israel, and is also representative of the twelve tribes. Yet the Church is never called "Jacob" and is never equated with the twelve tribes ANYWHERE in the New Testament.

2. There is not one typological reference made between biblical Israel and Gentile believers or any nonJewish entity called "The Church.

3. There is no prophecy given in the OT declaring that God's intent was permanently discard biblical Israel and create a New and more "true" Israel out of the Gentiles. Every reference to God's judgment of biblical Israel is accompanied by a promise of restoration of biblical Israel.

Those are just three of the reasons why this tummy rot about the Church being "Israel" is nothing but boorish nonsense.

[Guest shiloh357]

So the question for you is what salvation are you speaking of

Is there more than one?

Is it a basis of salvation for one to say or not say that Israel is a type of the Church.

It's not a basis for anything other than bad theology. It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of biblical fact. The Bible never offers Israel as a type of the Church.

Let me ask this question...By what means is Israel restored?

By God's righteous omnipotent hand. He is the one doing the restoring. He is restoring the Jews to the Land of Israel even when theologians said it would never happen, and even today, they persist in their doubt. Hardly any commenators who lived prior to 1948 thought that Israel would ever live again in the Land. They were wrong 100 years ago, and Israel is alive and well. It is the only nation in the history of the world that was ever revived after being totally destroyed for thousands of years.

You can read about the modern restoration of Israel from the following passages: Deuteronomy 30:3-5; Isaiah 27:12-13, 35:1-2, 41:18-20, 43:5-6, 51:3, Jeremiah 32:44, Ezekiel 36:8-10, 36:11, 36:33-35, 37:10-14, 37:15-19, Hosea 3:4-5, Joel 2:22, Amos 9:11, 13, 9:14-15, Micah 7:8-11, Zechariah 8:12.