Hebrews 6:4-6

[Guest shiloh357]

You are clueless. Paul says I AM the chief of SINNERS, not I was the chief of sinners and not that I used to be the chief of sinners. You really need to get your money back from that correspondence Bible study course.

sw

What Paul is doing is putting himself in the past as if it was the present. It is common form of Hebrew verbiage even when communicating in another language. It is the same thing Paul is doing in Romans 7, which is why there is so much confusion as to whether Paul's experience in Romans 7 was Paul's current experience or if it was his condition prior to redemption.

The fact remains that "sinner" is never used in the New Testament to refer to anyone other than unredeemed people.

.

[st. Worm]

You are clueless. Paul says I AM the chief of SINNERS, not I was the chief of sinners and not that I used to be the chief of sinners. You really need to get your money back from that correspondence Bible study course.

sw

What Paul is doing is putting himself in the past as if it was the present.

Spin on man. Of course all of the major Bible translators are wrong about this but you are right.

[tsth]

You are clueless. Paul says I AM the chief of SINNERS, not I was the chief of sinners and not that I used to be the chief of sinners. You really need to get your money back from that correspondence Bible study course.

sw

What Paul is doing is putting himself in the past as if it was the present.

Spin on man. Of course all of the major Bible translators are wrong about this but you are right.

Dear sw,

Do you believe that you can live an ongoing sin lifestyle, and be a Christian at the same time? If so, then what exactly did the death of Jesus Christ and His Power and Word accomplish/overcome for you? Or have you just not let go of the "old" man/lifestyle?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[mrs]

Just a reminder that the original post was about how to interpret Hebrews 6:4-6. Let's not derail the topic too far with the discussion over saint and sinner.

shiloh and tsth I agree with your posts

[Guest shiloh357]

You are clueless. Paul says I AM the chief of SINNERS, not I was the chief of sinners and not that I used to be the chief of sinners. You really need to get your money back from that correspondence Bible study course.

sw

What Paul is doing is putting himself in the past as if it was the present.

Spin on man. Of course all of the major Bible translators are wrong about this but you are right.

No, I did not say anything about the translators. The translators correctly render Paul's words. What I am saying is that it is very common for Hebrew writers to refer to the past in the present tense. Again, that is what Paul does in Romans 7.

In 1 Timothy 1:15, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners with respect to his past sins, not anything he has done since coming to faith in Christ. He is simply referring to his past condition in the present sense. It is statement of remorse by the same man who also called himself the least of the apostles and the least of the saints. Paul never stopped being remorseful for his past. Paul was making a statement of remorse for his past. He was not making a doctrinal position on his current standing with God.

As for translators, my remarks are supported in the preface of Youngs Literal translation where he more eloquently explains the concept of past and present tense usage by Hebrew writers.

Again, you have not offered anything substantive; all you seem to do is mock and belittle. One cannot be a sinner and a Christian. If you are still a sinner then you not a Christian and have no part with Christ. Christ transforms sinners into saints. He does not leave them in their former spiritual condition.

[st. Worm]

You are clueless. Paul says I AM the chief of SINNERS, not I was the chief of sinners and not that I used to be the chief of sinners. You really need to get your money back from that correspondence Bible study course.

sw

What Paul is doing is putting himself in the past as if it was the present.

Spin on man. Of course all of the major Bible translators are wrong about this but you are right.

No, I did not say anything about the translators. The translators correctly render Paul's words. What I am saying is that it is very common for Hebrew writers to refer to the past in the present tense. Again, that is what Paul does in Romans 7.

In 1 Timothy 1:15, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners with respect to his past sins, not anything he has done since coming to faith in Christ. He is simply referring to his past condition in the present sense. It is statement of remorse by the same man who also called himself the least of the apostles and the least of the saints. Paul never stopped being remorseful for his past. Paul was making a statement of remorse for his past. He was not making a doctrinal position on his current standing with God.

As for translators, my remarks are supported in the preface of Youngs Literal translation where he more eloquently explains the concept of past and present tense usage by Hebrew writers.

Again, you have not offered anything substantive; all you seem to do is mock and belittle. One cannot be a sinner and a Christian. If you are still a sinner then you not a Christian and have no part with Christ. Christ transforms sinners into saints. He does not leave them in their former spiritual condition.

When someone who apparently represents a website (I think worthy watchman means representative) that puts themselves out to be Christian in nature is allowed to repeatedly state that Christians are not to confess they are sinners and does so by twisting the clear words of an Apostle of Christ while the administrators sit on their hands in total silence, I have to question whether it really is a Christian website. As I said, shiloh, whatever religion you are practicing its seems more and more to have little to do with the Christian faith.

sw

[Guest shiloh357]

When someone who apparently represents a website (I think worthy watchman means representative) that puts themselves out to be Christian in nature is allowed to repeatedly state that Christians are not to confess they are sinners and does so by twisting the clear words of an Apostle of Christ while the administrators sit on their hands in total silence, I have to question whether it really is a Christian website.

The Bible only commands Christians to confess their faults to one another. It nowhere commands Christians to confess they are sinners because the Bible never refers to Christians as sinners. 100% of the time the terms sinner or sinners are applied to those outside the redeemed community. But since you cannot offer up a substance response, all you have left is to lash out, mock and belittle and issue hateful diminuitive remarks. In doing so, you only highlight the weakness of your position. So far, I stand completely unrefuted.

[Guest]

Boast Not

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Bit Less

"But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." Galatians 5:15-16

I have to question whether it really is a Christian website.

Brother, Please Forgive

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Ephesians 5:19

I Have A Word Or Two In Our Defense.......

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

Numbers 6:24

This.......

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

Numbers 6:25

And This......

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

Numbers 6:26

May You Bless Israel.......

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:27

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

Psalms 122:6

Love, Joe

[patricia1]

At least I can confess I am a sinner. Whatever religion you follow I guess that is not a good thing. Like I said, you have no idea about forensic justification and apparently not even the gospel. Being counted as righteous and being righteous are two different things. And don't call me hateful you jerk. You are the most hateful and divisive poster on this board.

Once again, you cannot actually address the substance of anything I posted which only highlights the weakness of your position.

• You cannot explain how saints can be blameless and pure yet still be sinners.
  
  
• You cannot explain how one can be a new creation and all things become new while still being the same sinner you ever were.
  
  
• You cannot demonstrate how that Christ died for us we WERE sinners according to Romans 5:8. "Were" implies a change in sstatus.
  
  
• You cannot provide ONE Scripture from the New Testament where Christians are identified as sinners.
  

I understand forensic justification just fine. I understand the difference beween legal and moral justification, st worm. I understand the difference beween imputed and imparted righteousness. I understand that we are declared righteous, not made rigteous. I understand that righteousness was imputed to us as it was to Abraham. I also know that justification changes my status from guilty to innocent.

The problem is that there is more in play than only justification. There is more the Bible has to say about what being born again means than justification. Justification is only one part of it.

I also understand that if being sinner is wrapped in what we do, then being righteous would be wrapped in what we do as well, but justification is by faith not by works. Your works do not make you sinner. Being saint, pure and blameless is based upon the finished work on the cross, not on what you do or don't do.

A sinner is one who is in Adam not in Christ. When you are born again, you are no longer a member of Adam's race, you are no longer idenitied with Adam; you are identified with Christ.

Sins do not make you a sinner anymore that good deeds make you righteous. If a person is still a sinner, he does not know Christ.

You are clueless. Paul says I AM the chief of SINNERS, not I was the chief of sinners and not that I used to be the chief of sinners. You really need to get your money back from that correspondence Bible study course.

sw

This post is becoming incredible in----- matthew Chapter 1" 'Lord , how often shall He is not talking to nonbelievers? my brother SIN against me and I forgive him?" "up to seven times" I do not say to you, up to seven times but up to seventy times seven

James chapter 5 verse 15 " And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins they will be forgiven him, verse 16 says" Therefore confess your sin one to another, so that you may be healed...."

verse 19 of the same chapter My. brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back verse 20let him know that he who turns a sinner away from error of his way will save a his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sin.

FIRST JOHN~~~~~ chapter one verse 8 to chapter 2 verse three~~

"If we say we have NO SIN, we are decieving ourselves, and the truth is not inus.If we confess our sins He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say WE HAVE NOT SINNED, We make him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to YOU that YOU MAY NOT SIN. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous and He Himself is the propiation for

OUR sins; and not for OURS only but also for those of the whole world!

trespass...transgression, sin are used interchangeably.

Blameless only under the blood, because of the blood, sinful due to the flesh that remains.....

Jesus shed His innocent..precious, necessary, all sufficient, cleansing...conquering Blood for reconciliation, breaking down the wall between the father and us. (Eph. 2) to redeem us and give us eternal life. The Blood is the wall( a analogy) that God sees us through. and shirlds the father from seeing our sin. But if we do transgress we have a great high priest to go to...for The blood of Jesus never becomes ineffective nor does it ever Lose its power. Yes you get the gift of salvation. If you do not take care of that gift properly it is your fault. If you do not go before the Lord and ask for cleansing when you have sinned or even take communion you are in trouble. Jesus did His part..I do my part. I need to submit to the Holy Spirit Daily. Daily being change in His image. And if that is the word then what other image is there. Your flesh remains your flesh. It lusts, Has pride, arrogance..(.not you personally), it fights against Gods law/commanments, has weaknesses and needs to be crucified according to Galations~~5:24.

It is like saying hypo manic. or a oxymoron or agressive depressive. Now I suggest you sit with the Lord and have Him answer the question for you through the power of the Holy Spirit if none of our answers are sufficient to you. our own pride makes us transgress... the word become means to cotinually moving... new is once I had no relationship and now I do. But you seek the lord your anger and frustration is fleshly...I am not calling you a sinner...but that could be what peter was talking about due to his temper and not agreeing with paul all the tim. Praying for you and us all Hope you get your answer and understandin with wisdom. in Jesus name patricia... :

[Guest shiloh357]

Confessing your sins and confessing you are a sinner are two different things. We are told to confess our faults to one another. The issue is what makes a person a sinner. I don't think anyone is absurd enough to claim that they do not sin or t hat there is absolutely no sin in their lives.

What seems to be incredibly difficult for certain people to understand is that the Christian life is both objective and subjective. This reality is seen at the beginning of Romans 8:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Romans 8:1)

Notice in the above verse that there two things being spoken of. Christian life is both (a) Positional ( In Christ) (b) Pragmatic (walking in the spirit/flesh).

The objective side of Christianity is positional: Either you are in Adam or you are in Christ. The subjective side is pragmatic: Either you are walking in the Spirit or you are walking in the flesh. Likewise the remedy is essentially two-fold: Justification deals with your position, your legal standing before God. Sanctification deals your works, or rather the daily removal of old habits, thoughts, etc.

I don't think that too many people are going to deny that the Bible teaches that one cannot be saved apart from Christ. The New Testament teaches that our works have nothing to do with wether we are acceptable before God. Man is born into a sinful nature/condition. It is that innate, inherent condition that brings him under condemnation and no amount of good works will alter that.

The New Testament's teaching on redemption is predicated by the truth that man is helpless before God to remove his own sin. Man is sinful and is a sinner by nature even if he lives a perfectly moral/ethical life. Even if a man were not to trangress any of God's statutes, it would not render him acceptable before God. Our loftiest most righteous deeds are still tainted with our sinful nature and are therefore, unacceptable and to God are nothing but filthy rags.

So from the outset, the problem presented by the Scriptures is wrapped up in what man is, not what man does. His works are the fruit or the outworking of what is on the inside. Salvation is not presented as behavioral reform or turning over a new leaf, but it is presented as a two-fold remedy to the two-fold problem man finds himself in before God.

God deals with man from the inside. That is why I said earlier that there is status change. Justification is a legal declaration of innoence. Man stands before God without Christ under the law until he receives Christ and is declared by God on the basis of Christ's finished work on the cross to be completely justified. This is imputed to us (credited to our account) by faith the same as Abraham according to Romans chapter four. Man is declared innocent of violating God's laws. He is declared as righteous as if Adam never sinned. What has happened is that on the cross, our sin was imputed to Christ and His righteousness has been imputed to us.

Justification means that I do not stand legally as a "sinner" before God any longer. I have been justified and delcared righteous by God. That status has been wiped clean by God the minute I accept Christ's righteousness, the minute I decide to place my full faith in Jesus and the finished work of cross. My legal/objective status has been changed. I am now "born of God." I am a new creation and old things have passed away and all things are made new. I am a saint, not a sinner. I am no longer a member of Adam's sinful race, but have been place in Christ. Positionally I am also no longer under the law but under grace. Only sinners are under the law.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Only sinners are under the dominion of sin. Only sinners are under the law. If you are under God's grace, you are no longer under the dominion of sin and no longer stand condemned under the law.