This passage has troubled me...

[firehill]

Shalom Firehill,

You rightly said that Paul would not contradict himself and so please read these verses that also support 1 Cor 14:

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1. This thread isn't about those passages of scripture. But I'd invite you to provide a context beginning with chp 1 of Tim that shows a prohibiton on correct teaching! (NO ONE has been able to provide that CONTEXT!!! We know that the entire context is about false teaching. See the 1 Tim 2:15 thread in doctrinal questions. Almost every point on that passage at least that I can think of was covered in that thread so I invite any to have a look!)

2. Those passages 'support' 1 co 14 according to what you believe which is based on YOUR interpretation/belief about them! So actualy they don't.

Shalom Firehill,

The verses in 1 Timothy prove that Paul was being consistent in his teaching of women not being in authority over women and thus does directly apply to this discussion.

The same YOUR interpretations do.

1. 'Authority' in 1 Tim 2 means to 'usurp authority', 'murder by one owns hand' etc etc. It has a very negative meaning and it was the kind of teaching that the 'a woman' was being prohibited from.

2. The context of 1 Tim 1 & 2 support my position and it does not support yours being the stopping of women from teaching correct doctrine.

3. Read the thread.

[OopsMartin]

The OT and the NT comprise one whole Word of God. They do not work against each other. When people quote portions of the NT in such a manner that they cause them to blatantly disagree with the words of the OT, then they have misinterpreted them. All the Words of Scripture support each other, mesh together into one whole picture of the workings of God.

Why are so many attempting to uses verses that are NOT meant to be instructions for worship in the church to cancel out the verses that are actually meant to be instructions for worship in the church?

Read these words carefully EmilyAnne...

The OT and the NT comprise one whole Word of God. They do not work against each other.

when people use NT verses in such a way that it makes the works of God in the OT as wrong, then there is misinterpretation.

Or, do they misinterpret the OT and read more into what is not there? Like I said, I am in agreement that women can be in ministry. Titus two is one very fine example of that. However, a woman cannot be in a ministry that puts her in authority over men, thus she cannot according to biblical standards be a pastor. The OT does not cancel out the standards ourtined in 1 Timothy. Like you said, the OT and NT comprise one whole word of God.

p.s. please dont yell at me. I'm not impressed.

It's about time for my dinner preparations so I've only a few minutes......

Sorry, for the "yelling". But you didn't seem to be getting what I was saying. However, you do seem to be getting something, by your first sentence, because that is the idea I was attempting to get across. When two sections of Scripture appear to contradict or go against each other then one of them is being viewed incorrectly.

Those who understand this fact and don't like something, attempt to change some things in the OT, such as the fact that Deborah was called, anointed and commissioned by God to be The Prophet of the era and The Judge of the era and led the nation in those capacities for 40 years. My concern in that is that whatever our disagreements about understanding the words of Paul, we must not denigrate God's chosen people in Scripture, especially one of Deborah's acclaim in Jewish History.

Also, the NT is absolutely NOT separate from the OT. It does not stand alone apart from the OT. You will find that Christ, Paul, and the other apostles all quoted from the OT. The NT is built upon the OT. Christ fulfilled righteousness by the Law and now we live by faith and grace. If you research carefully and actually understand what I am attempting to communicate, you will find that the OT Law as a schoolmaster has been completed in Christ

[firehill]

But it does mean that there are no NEW Laws that the New Covenant will add into the Old Covenant as some unknowingly are portraying. The principles in the OT carry over into the NT and still cannot be overturned.

There are no new mystery laws that women are under since the NT. To say otherwise is to introduce new laws that NEVER existed.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Firehill,

You rightly said that Paul would not contradict himself and so please read these verses that also support 1 Cor 14:

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1. This thread isn't about those passages of scripture. But I'd invite you to provide a context beginning with chp 1 of Tim that shows a prohibiton on correct teaching! (NO ONE has been able to provide that CONTEXT!!! We know that the entire context is about false teaching. See the 1 Tim 2:15 thread in doctrinal questions. Almost every point on that passage at least that I can think of was covered in that thread so I invite any to have a look!)

2. Those passages 'support' 1 co 14 according to what you believe which is based on YOUR interpretation/belief about them! So actualy they don't.

Shalom Firehill,

The verses in 1 Timothy prove that Paul was being consistent in his teaching of women not being in authority over women and thus does directly apply to this discussion.

The same YOUR interpretations do.

1. 'Authority' in 1 Tim 2 means to 'usurp authority', 'murder by one owns hand' etc etc. It has a very negative meaning and it was the kind of teaching that the 'a woman' was being prohibited from.

2. The context of 1 Tim 1 & 2 support my position and it does not support yours being the stopping of women from teaching correct doctrine.

3. Read the thread.

Shalom Firehill,

Let's read the Scriptures.

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I have read the thread, thank you, AND studied the Scriptures, and I do not agree that 1 Timothy supports your view. In fact, 1 Timothy supports the views that I have posted from several sources, that Paul is being consistent in his teaching that women are not to usurp authority OR teach over men, and we see "in silence" again, in ALL teaching, not the narrow interpretation that you offer. That is just not the meaning that is present. Paul states that women are not to teach men and that means to be a pastor, preacher, teacher or women in any position over men. It also supports the views I posted of 1 Cor 14 that women should not be preaching or disrupting the service by interpreting tongues.

[OopsMartin]

But it does mean that there are no NEW Laws that the New Covenant will add into the Old Covenant as some unknowingly are portraying. The principles in the OT carry over into the NT and still cannot be overturned.

There are no new mystery laws that women are under since the NT. To say otherwise is to introduce new laws that NEVER existed.

This brings us to the safety check that God has instituted, requiring two or three witnesses to establish truth. Most theologians know that we cannot establish doctrine on one piece of a sentence one statement in Scripture. Here is a quote from another website:

By Cheryl at

http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/01/19/wh...th/#comment-786

The two or three witnesses requirement is stated in Deut 19:15

Deu 19:15 "A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.

Paul confirmed that this requirement of two or three witnesses is also to establish a matter:

Paul himself confirms a matter by the required two or three witnesses:

2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.

2Co 13:2 I have previously said when present the second time, and though now absent I say in advance to those who have sinned in the past and to all the rest as well, that if I come again I will not spare anyone,

Jesus also confirmed that one testimony is not considered true:

Joh 5:31 "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.

Joh 5:32 "There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.

The Pharisees questioned Jesus about the things that he was testifying about:

Joh 8:13 So the Pharisees said to Him, "You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true."

Jesus answered that his testimony was not alone and therefore qualified by the "two or three witnesses" rule:

Joh 8:17 "Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true.

Joh 8:18 "I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."

So the Father is the second witness about the Son. John was also one who testified about Jesus and Jesus' works were also considered another testimony:

Joh 5:36 "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

Joh 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

The scriptures are still another testimony of Jesus:

Joh 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Paul tells us the importance of this repetition. The repetition is for our safety in Philippians 3:1 -

Php 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.

It is a safeguard to repeat things from different perspectives in order to be certain that it is properly understood.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

That is why 1 Timothy SUPPORTS 1 Corinthians 14. Simple.

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:

34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

[OopsMartin]

Going back to the first subject of this thread.... verses 34-35, verse 34 is confusing, because clearly women are permitted by Paul to speak (chapt 11, 12, rest of 14), there is no obvious relationship to speaking and being submissive, and there is no Scriptural Law that addresses this issue. It is possible that there is a local cultural law, but would seem unlikely for Paul to cite it. It is possible that he is referencing some local laws relative to the respect of women toward their husbands, of which there were numerous, both by the Greeks and Jews. Honor and Shame in the World of the Bible by V. H. Matthews et al, is supposed to discuss many of these. It is also possible that it is addressing the additional "laws" of the Mishnah created by the Pharisees since they concluded that to hear a woman's voice read the Law tainted the Law. Heavy misogynism.

There are two other possible interpretations being considered by present day theologians. A. C. Thiselton (in his new NIGTC) [1] suggests that the questions could be regarding sifting and weighing the words of the prophets, i.e. judging the prophets. While this is a good possibility, I think one needs to remember that the general congregations are not the ones to judge the words of the prophets either, but the prophets as a group, possibly including other anointed leadership.

Another possible interpretation is that verses 34 and 35 are another's words that Paul is quoting and actually repudiating in verse 36. "Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?" Paul has quoted others and then responded to them in other places. This is called an interpolation and Fee argues this in First Epistle . [2]

The first makes sense since women were coming out of a place of ignorance and most needed to learn more before they could offer informed constructive discussion. The second makes sense if Paul is addressing those who would think only men would ever be capable of discernment since it is the Holy Spirit who inspires and brings truth.

[1] The First Epistle to the Corinthians by Anthony C. Thiselton, pgs. 1156-1160

[2] First Epistle by G. Fee, page 710

It is not speech but abuse of speech that is being addressed here. This includes the speaking of tongues, the prophesying, and the probable disorderly questions. Neither tongues, nor prophesy, nor questions are being forbidden, but simply controlled. Paul is simply calling to order ordinary members of the congregation. Even Paul is willing to control and restrain himself even where he has rights if it means he is able to serve others better.

Regardless of all the possibilities; if it is addressing the discussion of discerning the words of the prophets or if Paul is admonishing those who wish to retain a privilege to themselves, it IS addressing disorderly speech in general. This is seen clearly in Pauls concluding statement: 39Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order. IMO if we go beyond that we err.

[Openly Curious]

1 Corinthians 14:34-35:

34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

I find that the women in my church add just as much as the men do, and in addition to that, they tend to be less shy when it comes to addressing the congregation. I would also feel very uncomfortable asking a wife to keep silent in church.

Could someone give me some opinions on these verses?

P.S. I won't reply until quite a bit later today, I have to go to work.

Hello Keilan,

I see that you have got a lot of different responses thus far so I'll throw mine in the mix. First you have to remember that we are talking about the Lord's house here and not our own homes. And this applies to both men and women coming into the house of God as the passage you are quoting from addresses both mannerism when coming to the house of God to pray and give the Lord worship. One must not overlook the word "Likewise" in the passage. The men should be in submission to the head of the Lord's house being Christ and the women must also be in submission to the same head when going to public worship being again Christ.

Now, that being said apostle Paul is simply using our natural home's order to show God's divine order in the church that we all come under when we go. The women are told in the word that they are to have a meek and quiet (humble, submissive, not grumbling, graceful,) a gentle spirit about them. What the passage tells us also is that women are not to "ursurp" the authority over the man. Well what does that mean? And how does she do it?

Ursurp is to take something that is not rightfully yours by different means to steal it away by deciet or whatever means neseccary to take one's position away and claim it as your own. A woman does this by being quarrelsome, like maybe she would be at home when her and her husband got in a fight or it can be one who will not listen to reason and fights against the truth being boistorious doing their own thing despite what God has put in order in churches. The passage teaches this is how a woman is suppose to "learn" being in "all" subjection under Christ.

Also in the passage of text apostle Paul says to women "I suffer not" meaning simply "I allow not" women to teach and ursurp authority in God's house but instead be in submission to Christ the head of the Church and learn from God in a spirit of true humility and grace not out of order and causing chaos in the Lord's house. The word "suffer" means "allow." So to me the text is self explanitory in what a woman is to and not to do while attending public worship.

I have never seen a power struggle go on without a "fight" have you? That is exactly what God said for women not to do in His house but be in silence and learn of Him in all humility and let the spirit of God teach you by those gifted leaders He has put in place in the church. The men are also to lift up holy hands without wrath and doubting and pray and worship God in submission in His house for that is His order. It is "likewise" for both.

The passage does not mean that she is never to speak in church that is not logical but be in submission with a meek and quiet spirit. The passage for some reason reminds me of Hannah in 1 Sameul who was in the temple "praying and worshipping" God and I don't think the house of God has changed as the passage you mention starts out talking about praying and worshipping which requires speaking with our mouths praying for all those in authority and the other things that is mentioned in the Timothy passage and to give praise and honor due His name.

Well I've said enough thus far and I hope I've said something to open up the text to you as God would have you see it and not I. Hope your studies continue to go well.

blessings

OC

[Emily~Anne]

The OT and the NT comprise one whole Word of God. They do not work against each other. When people quote portions of the NT in such a manner that they cause them to blatantly disagree with the words of the OT, then they have misinterpreted them. All the Words of Scripture support each other, mesh together into one whole picture of the workings of God.

Why are so many attempting to uses verses that are NOT meant to be instructions for worship in the church to cancel out the verses that are actually meant to be instructions for worship in the church?

Read these words carefully EmilyAnne...

The OT and the NT comprise one whole Word of God. They do not work against each other.

when people use NT verses in such a way that it makes the works of God in the OT as wrong, then there is misinterpretation.

Or, do they misinterpret the OT and read more into what is not there? Like I said, I am in agreement that women can be in ministry. Titus two is one very fine example of that. However, a woman cannot be in a ministry that puts her in authority over men, thus she cannot according to biblical standards be a pastor. The OT does not cancel out the standards ourtined in 1 Timothy. Like you said, the OT and NT comprise one whole word of God.

p.s. please dont yell at me. I'm not impressed.

It's about time for my dinner preparations so I've only a few minutes......

Sorry, for the "yelling". But you didn't seem to be getting what I was saying. However, you do seem to be getting something, by your first sentence, because that is the idea I was attempting to get across. When two sections of Scripture appear to contradict or go against each other then one of them is being viewed incorrectly.

Those who understand this fact and don't like something, attempt to change some things in the OT, such as the fact that Deborah was called, anointed and commissioned by God to be The Prophet of the era and The Judge of the era and led the nation in those capacities for 40 years. My concern in that is that whatever our disagreements about understanding the words of Paul, we must not denigrate God's chosen people in Scripture, especially one of Deborah's acclaim in Jewish History.

Also, the NT is absolutely NOT separate from the OT. It does not stand alone apart from the OT. You will find that Christ, Paul, and the other apostles all quoted from the OT. The NT is built upon the OT. Christ fulfilled righteousness by the Law and now we live by faith and grace. If you research carefully and actually understand what I am attempting to communicate, you will find that the OT Law as a schoolmaster has been completed in Christ

[ted]

Translation: I'm concerned about the way members are posting toward each other. Please keep things civil.

t.