Is Salvation Predestined??

[His son]

We don't need anything but The Bible, and The Holy Spirit. Too bad some just can't accept what God says.

Good Then, I see no reason to listen to your words, for not even you would instruct me to listen to you! So since you believe this, it would do you well not to write anything else on these boards, unless it be Scripture. For if you truly believe that we don't need anything but the Bible and the Holy Spirit... You are niether of these so I would presume you would have no reason then to do any writing beyond Scripture.!

If this statement is true, then why all the pastors and teachers? Why go to church, in fact why do we Listen to anything but the Scripture, 24/7? Mainly because this statement is untrue. We are to learn from one another, as demonstrated by the preaching of the Word. How will men hear if we do not preach? Or maybe we should just be going around reading the Bible Outloud!

Naturally I agree that all of our beliefs should be Scriptural, but to say this is the only place we are to learn from is simply silly. How did Paul learn to build tents! I doubt he learned that from the Scriptures. How dare he learn something that wasn't in the Bible!

Let's stop being silly.

As far as forknowledge... God Forknew his creation otherwise he could not elect them, for they would have no existance. Nowhere does it say we are elected according to our foreknown works.

And For Scriptures...

Eph 1-

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"

Romans 9-

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, "

John 6-

"44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "

John 6-

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father"

John 10-

26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"

2 Timothy-

"9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

This may help a little.

Ah but you see God has told me to take His light into all the dark places that I have access to, and there is a lot of darkness here to shine the light of His word into. And when false teachers are lulling the seekers into their false doctrines and private interpretations we're are called to expose them. You would do yourself a favor if you ask yourself a question: what if I'm wrong? That question saved me from the same deception you are in.

[Guest mcm42]

You would do yourself a favor if you ask yourself a question: what if I'm wrong? That question saved me from the same deception you are in.

Don't presume I have not asked that question!

You have your interpretation, and I have mine, please don't act as though your study is somehow superior to mine, whether it be in time spent, or in quality of study.

If you want for me to study the Bible, until I come to your conclusion, I never will. I came from that conclusion to where I am now, based on Scripture. Going back will not occur, because the Bible has taught me what I currently know, and it has not been without guidance and the instruction of good men.

" lulling the seekers into their false doctrines and private interpretations we're are called to expose them"

Don't you realize that what you type, what you speak is a private interpretation... I quote R.C. Sproul a well studied and much acclaimed Bible Believing and Following preacher and professor and you tell me I should not listen to him, only the Bible. Then you, who is not acclaimed in any respects, tell me I should then listen to you? By no means! I would be a fool among fools.

Each poster here is writing his or her interpretation, you would do well to respect that fact and not be so quick to judge who is right and who is wrong. I don't claim 100% infallibility, I don't tell anyone to agree with me, I share my side, and respect the other side... If you can't do that your going to lose a lot of good brothers in Christ.

I hold out my hand to you, and respect what you believe, I do not agree with it and don't suppose I will... but although I do not ask that you believe with me, I do ask that you respect my position.

Lastly I note that you have not asnwered a single of the scriptures I posted, why is that?

[stevehut]

I came from that conclusion to where I am now, based on Scripture...

Don't you realize that what you type, what you speak is a private interpretation... I quote R.C. Sproul a well studied and much acclaimed Bible Believing and Following preacher and professor

OK, I'm just a little confused here...

First you say that you're going strictly by the Bible

Then you say that private interpretation is wrong, but you quote the private interpretation of Sproul...

Which is it?

[Guest mcm42]

First you say that you're going strictly by the Bible

First I never said that... I said based on Scripture, not solely from Scripture.

Then you say that private interpretation is wrong

Second I never said that...

I'm not sure what your referring to, I was responding to His Son

We don't need anything but The Bible, and The Holy Spirit. Too bad some just can't accept what God says

And I was against that statement... so help me see where your getting that I said Private interpretation is wrong, or that I said "strictly by the Bible". explain if you show me what your seeing...

Thanks for your post...

[Guest mcm42]

I came from that conclusion

what I meant by "that conclusion" I meant the free will conclusion, not the private interpretation conclusion, I've never had the "private interpretation is wrong" conclusion.

let me know if this helps

[other one]

But we end up with the same question:

Romans 9:11-13

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

In this verse, God seems to have a clear plan of who belongs to Him and who does not...

Jesus verifies this by saying...

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

And...

John 6:37

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

[other one]

OK,we'll leave it at that,but ask yourself, what does John 1:9 mean?

John 1:9 "the true light which enlightens everyone was coming into the world. He was made in the world and the world did not recieve him. yet the world did not know him. He came to his own and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him who believed in his name he gave the right to become children of God. who were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God."

I think these verses teach a Predestine Salvation, also I think it's clear here that even though the light enlightened "everyone" not "everyone" recieved him.

Hope this helps

You can also look at these verses when not bolding out an idea you are trying to make and give equal emphesis to all as saying that:

Jesus came in to this world as flesh, but he made the world. He is the true light that lightens everyone. He came to his own and his own did not recieve him, but to all who did receive him He gave the power to become sons of God. He made them sons, or children of God, not by blood nor the will of the flesh but by the power of God.

This verse does not say that he picked the people who believed in him, it says that he made it possible for those who did believe in him to become children, or sons of God, which no one but He can do. I don't see that this verse teaches predestened salvation, just that those who do believe are given something we can't do ourselves even though we believe.

[His son]

Quote:

You have your interpretation, and I have mine, please don't act as though your study is somehow superior to mine, whether it be in time spent, or in quality of study.

If you want for me to study the Bible, until I come to your conclusion, I never will. I came from that conclusion to where I am now, based on Scripture. Going back will not occur, because the Bible has taught me what I currently know, and it has not been without guidance and the instruction of good men.

[Thats where your problem is good men will not get you to The Truth, The Bible tells you that The Holy Spirit will do that.]

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Pet 1:20

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Sam 14:14

14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

Job 37:24

24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

I came from your conclusion because I was a devout student of a lot of any thing that was about God writtings of men, meetings, conventions, any kind of gathering of Christians, studying Hebrew, and Greek, got so good at Greek I could read my Greek new testament fairly well. And then got exposed to the controversies about some of these man made Doctrines with everybody making claims and using Scripture to support them, until I was so disgusted with the Christians I began to think maybe it was after all nothing but a figment of mens imaginations like the commies say, an opiate for the people. So I began to withdraw from all my Christian activities and when I got so far down The Holy Spirit reminded me of My visitation of Christ, and my first response which was reading The Bible all the time when I didn't have to be doing something else to exist. So I started doing it again. This has continued ever since and it started in 1986. He led me into start in Genesis, make headings of various doctrines of all issues that cause all the controversies. The OSAS was the hardest one for me to give up because it was my pet doctrine. But the whole of The Bible in regards to mans relationship with God starts with God giving man the freewill to Choose who He will serve, And every life that is written in it demostrates to those who read it what the results of those freewill choices are. And when I was led to apply some of the other doctrines that effect that doctrine, I didn't have a choice but to either take God's Word or mans word. I have chosen God's Word, and He Has Written in out in His own Words that a man can be saved and taste of the power of God working in and through Him well advance up that narrow way, and turn His back on Him to the point of no return. Thess facts are written by God with out any of mans words added to them, and all through out The Bible. And they are lived in the lives of many of those written there in. So it's just like the title of Josh McDowells book: Evidence That Demands A Verdict. That verdict as pronounced by God is that a man can be saved and turn His back on God and loose His salvation. And because He has put a call on my life since He got me back on the narrow path to proclaim His Truth everywhere He tells me to and this is one of those places I will be on here exposing that false doctrine for what it is as long as it is being proclaimed here.

[Guest mcm42]

Thats where your problem is good men will not get you to The Truth, The Bible tells you that The Holy Spirit will do that

How about if I say the the Holy Spirit has taught me and Guided me into my conclusion, and I feel that it is as accurate, and Biblical, if not more, in fact much more than yours. I think it does more justice to God, and less justice to man. The way the Holy Spirit has taught me it should be.

And because He has put a call on my life since He got me back on the narrow path to proclaim His Truth everywhere He tells me to and this is one of those places I will be on here exposing that false doctrine for what it is as long as it is being proclaimed here.

And I will say the same to you.

You have studied and come to a conclusion... I have studied and come to a conclusion... they are different... So be it.

[Guest LadyC]

How about if I say the the Holy Spirit has taught me and Guided me into my conclusion, and I feel that it is as accurate, and Biblical, if not more, in fact much more than yours. I think it does more justice to God, and less justice to man. The way the Holy Spirit has taught me it should be.

and i feel likewise. the Holy Spirit has taught and guided me to my conclusion, and i feel it is more accurate and biblical than yours.... but since we both know that the Holy Spirit isn't going to teach opposite things to different people, it's safe to say we're both leaning heavily on our own understanding of the same scriptures, whouldn't you agree?