Baptism and Gift of the Holy Spirit

[None]

Or do you believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not part of the salvation experience, but only for power?

I believe our bodies are imperfect vessels although we can be filled and flow over with the power of the Holy Spirit but only in His own timing and for God's purposes. There was only ever One perfect and pure Vessel and that is Jesus.

The Holy Spirit goes where He is needed and our imperfect vessels can only hope to be filled by Him and used for God's will and purpose.

Luke 5: 36And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

37And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

38But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

2 Corinthians 5: 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Colossians 2: 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

John 6: 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

2 Corinthians 13: 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Hebrews 4: 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Welcome to Worthy!

[Guest Greg Davies]

I also believe that the "indwelling" of the Spirit takes place when we trust Christ as savior, and He forever remains in us.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Then I believe that the "filling" of the Spirit for the Christian takes place when we do not grieve or quench the Holy Spirit and our walking in the Spirit.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Hello Eddie,

In Acts 19, Paul goes to Ephesus and finds "believers" from Apollos' ministry. They are also called disciples and we can conclude that they were saved. But it wasn't until Paul taught them about the Holy Spirit that they were filled and then they spoke in tongues and prophecied.

This is yet another example demonstrating that salvation (confessing the Lord Jesus and being baptized in the Holy Spirit) and the gift of the Holy Spirit are two seperate events.

One is for cleansing and renewing (born again) and one is for power and manifestation.

Greg.

[Guest Greg Davies]

The Holy Spirit goes where He is needed and our imperfect vessels can only hope to be filled by Him and used for God's will and purpose.

Howdy None,

Bless you sister. According to Luke 11:13, the Holy Spirit is a gift that is available to any who ask. Only ask and you shall receive.

Greg.

[Guest Greg Davies]

Even the Apostles, though they believed in Christ, were saved, had received the Spirit, were told to wait in Jerusalem for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit to empower them to be witnesses. Before the baptism in the Holy Spirit they were fearful and in hiding. After the baptism in the Holy Spirit they preached boldly though it might cost them their lives. So let's all be filled with the Spirit and preach the Gospel in boldness in the temple and in the market place!

The Apostles and the other disciples were saved literally when the Holy Spirit was poured out on them the day of Pentecost. Yes, they were saved before in the context of everyone who looked for the coming Messiah was saved.

But, until Jesus presented His blood to the Father and the Father was satisfied, no one was actually saved in the context of "being born again", until the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father, was poured forth on the day of Pentecost. John 3:6 declares that that which is born of Spirit is spirit. The mechanics, if you will, are described in Titus 3:5.

To break down Acts 2 to clarify the difference between the baptism and gift of the Holy Spirit, verses 2 and 3 describe the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the resulting new spirit each believer received, which was visually manifested as a sign to all that they had recieved the new spirit. Verse 4 describes the additional work of being filled with the Holy Spirit and the manifestation that all believers can expect, the speaking in tongues. Note the word "and" at the beginning of verse 4.

God bless, Greg.

[Guest Greg Davies]

Arguing theology from Acts is difficult because it is historical narrative. There were some unique conditions in Acts that cannot be repeated today. For example, the disciples were believers before the Holy Spirit was given. So we would expect a unique receiving of the Spirit by them. Today those conditions do not exist. the language in the epistiles leads us to believe that we are all baptized with the same Spirit. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a salvation thing, not an additional top off of the tank

Dear brother Eric,

I'm sure you are not suggesting that Acts is any less inspired than the Gospel of Luke which was written by the same person and is also a historical narritive.

Yes, the disciples were believers before Pentecost, but they could not have been "born again" spiritually before the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, was poured out on the day of Penecost.

Bless you, Greg.

[Sherman]

Even the Apostles, though they believed in Christ, were saved, had received the Spirit, were told to wait in Jerusalem for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit to empower them to be witnesses. Before the baptism in the Holy Spirit they were fearful and in hiding. After the baptism in the Holy Spirit they preached boldly though it might cost them their lives. So let's all be filled with the Spirit and preach the Gospel in boldness in the temple and in the market place!

Arguing theology from Acts is difficult because it is historical narrative. There were some unique conditions in Acts that cannot be repeated today. For example, the disciples were believers before the Holy Spirit was given. So we would expect a unique receiving of the Spirit by them. Today those conditions do not exist. the language in the epistiles leads us to believe that we are all baptized with the same Spirit. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a salvation thing, not an additional top off of the tank

A couple of problems with your reply there, imo: One, Acts is part of the inspired word of God and profitable for doctrine, reproof, instruction in righteousness, etc. I do agree that being historical narrative, like the Gospels, one must be careful in how it is used in developing doctrine, but that does not mean it cannot be used. In the same way, the letters must also be handled properly. They are not books of law and should not be interpreted as such. The type of literature of each book is very important in how we use it. But if used properly, historical narrative can be very powerful in revealing God, His character, desires, and will.

Two, what specifically are talking about that was "unique to Acts" that is not "repeated today". Churches are still being planted. The Gospel is being preached. The Great Commission is still in effect. The Holy Spirit is still working in and through the lives of Christians. God still anoints His servants today for service and to build His kingdom. Concerning the disciples, Jesus blew on them and said, "Receive ye the Spirit." They were born of the spirit by faith in Christ just like we are today. And yet He told them to wait in Jerusalem until they were endued with power to enable them to be martyrs/witnesses. So the baptism/gift of the Spirit had not been given, but they certainly had the Spirit, as in salvation and being born of the Spirit. They had the Scriptures, what they considered the canon of Scripture. We have the scripture also, their scripture plus more books and letters that the early church canonized. They had great challenges to overcome, as we do today. It looks to me like we have the same conditions today. People still need Jesus. People are still demonized. People still need ..... and God is still faithful, kind, merciful, loving, just, righteous, holy.....! He is still what we people need!

Three, concerning the epistles leading "us to believe that we are all baptized with the same Spirit." I don't see that in the epistles. In fact, I see the opposite; the epistles lead me to believe that we all need to be filled (initially, increasingly, repeatedly, and continually) with the Holy Spirit. In fact, Paul says to desire spiritual gifts. Speaking to believers he says "be filled with the Holy Spirit." He said, "I wish you all spoke in tongues," and even more so to "prophesy." Or, maybe because Corinthians is a letter written to a messed up church we should not consider it either, only looking for Law books? But then again, the NT doesn't have a law book like the OT Leviticus. Actually, even the Letters should be understood similar to historical narrative because they were the response to a specific people concerning specific needs, kinda like reading a letter, not a book of theology.

So let me encourage you and all reading to be filled with the Holy Spirit and pray in the Spirit without giving up!

Blessings,

Sherman

[Sherman]

Yes, the disciples were believers before Pentecost, but they could not have been "born again" spiritually before the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, was poured out on the day of Penecost.

I'm curious as to why you don't think they could be born again. Jesus said to Nicodemus in Jn.3 that except a man is born of the Spirit he cannot even see the kingdom of God. I think Abraham, Noah, David, Samuel, John the Baptist, Enoch, etc. all could see or perceive the Kingdom of God and were born of the Spirit. I believe that salvation has always been by faith through the grace of God.

[Guest Greg Davies]

I'm curious as to why you don't think they could be born again. Jesus said to Nicodemus in Jn.3 that except a man is born of the Spirit he cannot even see the kingdom of God. I think Abraham, Noah, David, Samuel, John the Baptist, Enoch, etc. all could see or perceive the Kingdom of God and were born of the Spirit. I believe that salvation has always been by faith through the grace of God.

Hello Sherman,

Great question. Yes, all who looked forward to Christ were saved and as Jesus taught through the story of Lazerus the beggar (Luke 16), the righteous when they died, were taken to "Abraham's bosom", a place of rest and comfort.

When Jesus ascended, according to Eph. 4:8,9, he led "captivity captive" by going into the "lower parts of the earth". This means He gathered those believers who had died before He could present His blood to the Father as the propitiation for the sin of the world, and took them to heaven with Him.

However, they were not "born again", meaning that they had not received a new spirit until they were born of the Spirit, baptism in the Holy Spirit, until the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father, was given. This could not happen until Jesus presented His blood after He ascended.

Yes, this is all received by faith, no question. This is all the work of the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bless God!

Greg.

[Sherman]

Hey Greg,

Thanks for your reply, but I don't think that you've established your premise. In fact, if you look at John 3, Jesus seems to imply that Nicodemous should have already been born of the Spirit especially considering he was a leader of Israel. Of course, this was before the cross. Furthermore, the hall of faith in Heb. 11 is full of people that had tremendous faith in God and relationship with Him. And when you look at David's cry of "renew a right spirit in me", the terminology is very similar to being born of the Spirit. Well, I don't know that it's possible to "prove" it conclusively either way, but it seems to me that the evidence leans towards OT saints being born of the Spirit as we are, by faith through grace.

Blessings,

Sherman

[Guest Greg Davies]

Hey Greg,

Thanks for your reply, but I don't think that you've established your premise. In fact, if you look at John 3, Jesus seems to imply that Nicodemous should have already been born of the Spirit especially considering he was a leader of Israel. Of course, this was before the cross. Furthermore, the hall of faith in Heb. 11 is full of people that had tremendous faith in God and relationship with Him. And when you look at David's cry of "renew a right spirit in me", the terminology is very similar to being born of the Spirit. Well, I don't know that it's possible to "prove" it conclusively either way, but it seems to me that the evidence leans towards OT saints being born of the Spirit as we are, by faith through grace.

Blessings,

Sherman

Hi Sherman,

David's cry in Psalm 51:10 was the cry of every believer before the Cross; to be "born again". In Ezekiel 36:26, we see the prophetic declaration of what the Lord was going to do to restore man to His original purpose for him. It starts with a new spirit (born of the spirit) and a new heart (one of the purposes of water baptism; born of the water).

In Rom. 8:29 we find that we are to be conformed to His image so Jesus will be the first born from the dead. No one could be born again until Jesus was raised from the dead, fulfilling the Messianic Second Psalm. Focus on verses 6 and 7.

I'm enjoying our exchange, thanks, Greg.