A new take on an old argument

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh cont...part II.....

Wrong. Salvation is a gift and it is guaranteed. Your position makes salvation a reward for service, and not the free gift the Bible declares it to be.

Probably becasue you do not understand the whole plan of salvation. I think the part to which you refer is Christ's work on the Cross. It is a done deal, accomplished 2000 years ago, guaranteed eternal existance to mankind, as well as atoned for the sins of mankind. But that is not the salvation of each individual person. That is the gift we accept, that we beleive Christ gave to us, so that we might be able to fulfill our created existance by being in union with Him. It is a free gift to mankind.

Furthermore, I have already already passed from death unto life. My sin, all of it, has been nailed to the cross and has been borne away by Christ's final and complete work upon the cross.

that would make you some kind of new Universalist. Christ gave life to mankind by His resurrection. He atoned, by His death, the sins of the world. I might add, unless you sought forgiveness, repented of your sins, all of your sins are still all yours. They are not forgiven unless you seek forgiveness.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification. For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

(Romans 5:15-18)

This is all talking about physical life. It is not referecing our spiritual union through faith. All men have received this gift. All men will live eternally, guaranteed. Read vs 18 VERY CAREFULLY. Life came to all men.

I Cor 15:20-22 also says the same thing. As in Adam all men die, so also in Christ shall all men be made alive. This is a physical life. Immortality through the Incarnated Christ and based on His resurrection.

Frankly, to believe as you do, would require me to go backwards.

Now, that is the best recommendation you can give to yourself. You surely need to go back to the Early Church and the Church that has existed since the beginning which has held that belief sacred, through the witness of the Holy Spirit for 2000 years.

Unfortunately you go from one extreme to the other. Study it without your presuppositions in place and it will become manifest.

Salvation is the product of an inner transformation of the heart and a living and dynamic relationship with Christ. Our works demonstrate that relationship and are the outworking of the work that Christ has wrought in us who have placed our trust in Him. They do not complete, aid, enhance, or any way add to the finished work on the cross.

Salvation is the product of an inner transformation of the heart and a living and dynamic relationship with Christ. Our works demonstrate that relationship and are the outworking of the work that Christ has wrought in us who have placed our trust in Him. They do not complete, aid, enhance, or any way add to the finished work on the cross.

The first part is exactly correct, but this transformation does not occur unilaterally. It is a mutual exchange of desires on the part of each participant. When we decide, if we decide to leave this communion, we can and are allowed. That is how we were created to be respective of serving, being in union with God.

However, respective of Christ's work on the Cross, the salvation of our souls has absolutely nothing to do with the Work of Christ on the Cross. All you need to do is accept, believe by faith. But fiaht does not save you. It only permits you to enter into His Kingdom. Now, that you are there, you are being saved through that faith. It entails work. It entails being faithful, being repentant, serving others, loving mankind, loving your enemies.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

I know that I am saved today, tommorrow, and 25 years from now. I have "eternal life." The operative term is "eternal." It's not "wait and see life." It is not "for the time being life." Eternal life is not a length of time, really. Eternal life is Jesus. I have Jesus living on the inside of me fulfilling the righteousness of the law in me according to Roman 8.

Ah, but every human being has eternal life.

No they do not. The Bible defines eternal life as the Christ Himself. John 11:25-26, John 14>6)

Every human being will live forever, but only Christians have eternal life.

Christ is not fulfilling any law inside of you.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4)

QUOTE

Part of the problem with the misguided theology you possess is that you overestimate the value of your works. You seem to operate from the mistaken notion that your works appear as "good" and "righteous" to God as they appear to you.

You have not yet shown my view is m isguided. It is misguided based on your interpretation, but you will find not a single bit of evidence in all of 2000 years within Christianity and based on the Gospel once given that your view has ever seen the light of day.

If your works were good enough by God's standards, you wouldn't need Jesus in the first place.

QUOTE

Well that may be what you believe, but I prefer biblical Christianity as presented in the Bible. The Bible's phrase "working out your salvation" does not mean "working FOR your salvation." It means, from the Greek, to put on display. The idea is that our works are a public testimony or outworking/demonstration of the inner transformation that has already occurred.

So, far all you have given is your interpretation of the Bible. I can assure you that not one Christian prior to only a couple of hundred years ago, never even knew and surely did not believe as you do.

The words mean what they mean, and you are impotent to demonstrate otherwise.

I need to confess my sin each day and then get on with the journey of being continually transformed into His Image. To be made holy and blameless, sanctified through Christ. It is a mutual relationship, partnership, with Christ. It is the purpose of our being created in the first place, it is the role to which Christ restored manking to be able to perform. Our works are all salvfic if done in faith.

You are not good enough to be in partnership with God. None of us are. There is NOTHING in the Bible that even hints that salvation is a partnership between us and God. That alone is the weakness of your point. You can go on and on about it, but you cannot back it up with the testimony of Scripture.

Obviously you must have a totally different Bible then.

Nothing about this mythical partnership you espouse is not in the Bible.

God created man, with a soul. An Image of Himself in order that God could commune, be in union with man. You missed it right from Genesis. It is this relationship from which man fell and to which Christ restored mankind, the ability to have this relationship. You have missed the whole intent of revelation

No, I have not. I simply do not see the relationship as a partnership and since you can't support this "partnership" from any text in Scripture, I have no reason to accept that assertion.

[Guest shiloh357]

Wrong. Salvation is a gift and it is guaranteed. Your position makes salvation a reward for service, and not the free gift the Bible declares it to be.

Probably becasue you do not understand the whole plan of salvation. I think the part to which you refer is Christ's work on the Cross. It is a done deal, accomplished 2000 years ago, guaranteed eternal existance to mankind, as well as atoned for the sins of mankind. But that is not the salvation of each individual person.

Sorry but your "two salvations" teaching is not in the Bible. Each person is saved ONLY when they accept Christ as Savior. Nothing in the Bible indicates that mankind, in general was saved 2,000 years ago. Salvation was made available to all men, but it must accepted personally.

QUOTE

Furthermore, I have already already passed from death unto life. My sin, all of it, has been nailed to the cross and has been borne away by Christ's final and complete work upon the cross.

that would make you some kind of new Universalist. Christ gave life to mankind by His resurrection. He atoned, by His death, the sins of the world. I might add, unless you sought forgiveness, repented of your sins, all of your sins are still all yours. They are not forgiven unless you seek forgiveness.

I said "SIN" not "SINS." My sin was nailed to cross with Christ. The confession of sins is not for God's benefit, but the cleansing of the conscience of man from guilt and condemnation.

This is all talking about physical life.

No, I cited Romans 6:23 which specifically denotes eternal life, which is not physical life at all.

Cor 15:20-22 also says the same thing. As in Adam all men die, so also in Christ shall all men be made alive. This is a physical life. Immortality through the Incarnated Christ and based on His resurrection.

Yes, but that is dealing with a different issue, namely all men being made physically alive at the resurrection. Some being resurrected to eternal life and others to eternal damnation, and so this really not material to this discussion.

QUOTE

Frankly, to believe as you do, would require me to go backwards.

Now, that is the best recommendation you can give to yourself. You surely need to go back to the Early Church and the Church that has existed since the beginning which has held that belief sacred, through the witness of the Holy Spirit for 2000 years.

I have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. I would not and could not EVER subscribe to your false teachings as they are not based on Scriptures. I am a Christian and will only participate in true, biblical Christianity, not the slop of a works-based salvation that you espouse.

However, respective of Christ's work on the Cross, the salvation of our souls has absolutely nothing to do with the Work of Christ on the Cross.

The personal salvation of each person is predicated on the work of Christ on the cross.

All you need to do is accept, believe by faith. But fiaht does not save you. It only permits you to enter into His Kingdom. Now, that you are there, you are being saved through that faith. It entails work. It entails being faithful, being repentant, serving others, loving mankind, loving your enemies.

Sorry, once again, none of that is in the Bible. That may be what the EO teaches, but I prefer biblcal Christianity.

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh,

No they do not. The Bible defines eternal life as the Christ Himself. John 11:25-26, John 14>6)

yes, He is, His the LIFE of the World. He is the LIGHT of the World. He is the SAVIOR of the world. He is the Logos, the Word became flesh.

Every human being will live forever, but only Christians have eternal life.

What is the difference? The Bible makes no distinction. It is also immortal life.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4)

Christ is the one, the ONLY one fulfiling the law, because we could not. He did it by taking on OUR flesh. He is not fulfilling anything in you personally. We gain all this by faith. Faith claims all that Christ did for us.

If your works were good enough by God's standards, you wouldn't need Jesus in the first place.

Quite the contrary. Paul repeatedly makes the statement that righteousness could never come by the law through man. If it could THEN Christ would not be needed.

But a dead, fallen creature, even if he could work perfectly, still could not give himself life. How could a dead being give life? How could a sinful creature even propitiate his own sins, let alone the sins of the world. Works have nothing to do with the Work of Christ on the Cross. Man has nothing to do with the Work on the Cross because he couldn't perform it anyway.

But works, ONLY works of righteousness will save your soul. It is the evidence of faith in God that you follow Him with obedience. It is obedience that actually saves you. Check with Adam. If he had remained obedient, would he not have been saved, (continued to walk and talk with God)?

The words mean what they mean, and you are impotent to demonstrate otherwise.

I have just refuted them. I have 2000+ years of historical records to numerous to even list or you don't have a lifetime long enough to read it all, stating exactly what I have just stated. Could you do the same, for historical record going way back to the Apostles. Can you actually make your claim stick and show it is Apostolic?

You are not good enough to be in partnership with God. None of us are. There is NOTHING in the Bible that even hints that salvation is a partnership between us and God. That alone is the weakness of your point. You can go on and on about it, but you cannot back it up with the testimony of Scripture.

Like I stated before. It seems you have a much different Bible than most. I would say that maybe 80% of the NT alone speaks about man's relationship with God, a union, a mutual covenant. The other 20% speaks directly about the Gift God offers to mankind which he can either accept or reject.

You might want to start reading the NT all over again. It refutes your whole theology. Well, the historcial Christian belief and practice of that witness. It does not refute your personal theology which up to this point, that is all it is.

Nothing about this mythical partnership you espouse is not in the Bible.

The correct word is mystery. We are "born again" when we beleive In Christ. We enter into a spiritual, mutual, relationship, a partnership, of cooperation, in the salvation of our souls.

Read the NT once again, you missed it again.

No, I have not. I simply do not see the relationship as a partnership and since you can't support this "partnership" from any text in Scripture, I have no reason to accept that assertion.

That you don't is your problem. The fact that it is there, and historically has been believed, understood, precisely that way may not change your view, but it is a historical fact. That you cannot change. You are free to believe what you desire, but you have not in the least shown that it is the historical Gospel once given.

Sorry but your "two salvations" teaching is not in the Bible. Each person is saved ONLY when they accept Christ as Savior. Nothing in the Bible indicates that mankind, in general was saved 2,000 years ago. Salvation was made available to all men, but it must accepted personally.

That is the point. You have already contradicted your own statement. You beleive He is the Savior. That work happened 2000 years ago and every human being was saved from the fall, from death, from the condemnation through Adam. You were saved already the moment you were concieved as a human being. It has nothing to do with you personally, only that you are a human beings. But that your individual soul is saved is all about the synergistic cooperative work you do by faith, living IN Christ, as a believer. Being a believer is completely impossible unless Christ first saved mankind from the fall, death.

Without writing the entire NT to show this, here is a start with Christ's redemptive work on the Cross overcoming death and sin for all, every single human being.

I'll let you look them up as this postwould be waaaaaay to long to write them and explain them.

God sent His Only Son, Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself, II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.

Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.

By the way, this is the historical Gospel from the beginning, unchanged for 2000 years. Not my personal twist on scripture.

Cont.....part II....

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh,

Cont...part II..

I said "SIN" not "SINS." My sin was nailed to cross with Christ. The confession of sins is not for God's benefit, but the cleansing of the conscience of man from guilt and condemnation.

As are all the sins of every single other human being who ever lived. Christ is the propitiation of the sins of the World, but expecially of believers. Christ died for sinners, not the righteous. If it is cleansing from condemnation, why is not that of God's benefit. If not washed, or cleansed, you cannot be accepted INTO Christ. He did it for you so that you can have this union with Him. He desires that all men come to know Him, that is why He propitiated the sins for all.

No, I cited Romans 6:23 which specifically denotes eternal life, which is not physical life at all.

Eternal life is physical life, it is immortality. Unless you think we are not physical, and we exist in some other form. What form do you think that might be if not physical?

You do beleive Christ was Incarnated, was man as well as God, but that the human nature He assumed was physical and that He did arise from the dead, actually, physically, not by some other form, if so which?

Yes, but that is dealing with a different issue, namely all men being made physically alive at the resurrection. Some being resurrected to eternal life and others to eternal damnation, and so this really not material to this discussion.

It is because that is precisely what you made the issue. you have also contridicted your earlier definition of eternal life. Here you also place it upon unbelievers, eternal damnation. That means eternal death, or what is known as the second death which is not physical but spiritual. A spiritual death cannot exist unless a person, a human being has life, physical. That is precisely why eternal life, means an everlasting, immortal physical life.

I have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. I would not and could not EVER subscribe to your false teachings as they are not based on Scriptures. I am a Christian and will only participate in true, biblical Christianity, not the slop of a works-based salvation that you espouse.

I fully understand your view. There are hundreds of them. They all claim as you do, but do not have a shred of evidence to even begin to show that it is the Gospel given to the Apostles, and preserved since by the Holy Spirit, unchanged, consistant in history. Christianity is not a personal gospel but a universal one. It was given ONCE for all mankind for all times. Yours can be your own, but it cannot be claimed as the Gospel given unless you can show historically that the Holy Spirit fulfilled His promise to preserve His Gospel as well as the Body of Christ in this world. Can you do that? Or are you satisfied with your personal interpretation of a Book, taken out of it full context and content? Christianity does not, has not existed in a vaccum and was absent untill you read the Bible and came up with your interpretation.

The personal salvation of each person is predicated on the work of Christ on the cross.

yes, certainly, made it all possible. But is is not actually the Work of Christ on the Cross.

My statement: All you need to do is accept, believe by faith. But fiaht does not save you. It only permits you to enter into His Kingdom. Now, that you are there, you are being saved through that faith. It entails work. It entails being faithful, being repentant, serving others, loving mankind, loving your enemies.

Your response:

Sorry, once again, none of that is in the Bible. That may be what the EO teaches, but I prefer biblcal Christianity.

Have you ever read the Beatitudes. They are found in Matt 5, this is the description of true discipleship. It is what all Christians should be. It is the standard by which we are measured. It is becoming that to which we are growing in Christ, it is that to which we are being conformed.

Does not Christ command you to love your enemies. What is the value that you love someone who loves you back. We are to love those who persecute us. That is LIVING IN Christ. It takes effort, perseverence, and we can accomplish all things through Christ who strengthens us. But we must above all be willing. If not, we cannot be IN Christ.

You seem to reject most of the Bible, at least the Gospel of Christianity as it has always been believed.

What is now the EO is the Church that gave you the Canon, the Bible that you seem to abuse and attempt to make it your own private faith source.

[Thaddaeus]

Cobalt1959,

Whoa. Then what exactly is the "work" you are talking about? If Christ didn't do the work on the cross, just where do you think your salvation is coming from? What "work" is saving you?

Your statment indicates that you have not read all that I wrote leading up to this explanation. Go back and read it all. I would be far to long to repeat.

But briefly, the Work of Christ on the Cross is solely to redeem mankind from the judgement of Adam, death and the resultant sins from our fallen nature. Christ redeemed the World. He is the Savior of the world, That work restored mankind to life which restored mankind to what he was created to be before the fall. Before the fall is what man fell from, is not the fall. Christ corrected the fall so that we, as believers, in union and communion with God can do with God what we fell from due to the fall.

The salvation of ones soul is that which we fell from. It is the created purpose of who we are as human beings created in God's Image to be in union with Him eternally. We were created to be eternal, immortal and in union with God. The fall precluded that from ever happening without someone to correct it. That is what Christ accomplished on the Cross. It provided the means by which I can freely join with God and synergistically in union and communion save my soul.

I don't really think the EO has cornered the market on sound Christian doctrine.

Before I converted I took almost 6 years trying to refute even one small portion of it and all I was able to do was soundly refute what I had believed for 55 years as a protestant. That is not to say protestants don't have some of it correct. But no denomination has it all correct but all denominations are immitations a parallel faith of the Original. That is my belief, it does not need to be yours. You may prefer the Baskin Robbins choices.

You claim that others are abusing the Bible, or not understanding it, or using it incorrectly, but it seems to me that it is you that are a little fuzzy on things in general. Your whole last post there kind of smacks of a "one true church" kind of attitude, and that is a major red flag.

Well, one must do a lot of rationalization to say that Christ is not the One True Faith. If He gave us His Gospel, promised to preserve it within the Body of Christ here on earth, do you actually believe Him or not. Do you much prefer to believe your own interpretation of a Book taken out of its full content and context?

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh,

QUOTE

No they do not. The Bible defines eternal life as the Christ Himself. John 11:25-26, John 14>6)

yes, He is, His the LIFE of the World. He is the LIGHT of the World. He is the SAVIOR of the world. He is the Logos, the Word became flesh.

While God is the source of all life and sustains life on this planet, that is not material to this discussion.

QUOTE

Every human being will live forever, but only Christians have eternal life.

What is the difference? The Bible makes no distinction. It is also immortal life.

The diifference is that eternal life is not a place or even a length of time. Eternal life is Jesus. You can live forever and not have eternal life. Jesus is eternal life and Jesus is salvation. Jesus' real Name is Yeshua, which means "salvation." Eternal life is not merely living forever but also denotes a quality of life, namely is the life of God Himself. Furthermore, the Bible says:

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13)

Now, the above passage tells me, that eternal life is in Christ. It also tells me that a person that does not have Jesus, does not have eternal life. So, while every will live forever, only Christians will eternal life. This is further supported by both John 11:25-26 and John 14:6 which teach us that Jesus Himself is the eternal life. Jesus does not claim to be eternal life for the world. Jesus said that he is the resurrection and the life for those who believe in Him, and that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life ONLY for those who come to the Father through him.

QUOTE

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4)

Christ is the one, the ONLY one fulfiling the law, because we could not. He did it by taking on OUR flesh. He is not fulfilling anything in you personally. We gain all this by faith. Faith claims all that Christ did for us.

The Bible says, and I just cited it above that the rightesouness of the law is being fulfilled in us. Now, I see that you are not above disputing what is plainly written in Scripture. Jesus came that the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in us. It is plainly stated. You can say it isn't so, but I am a Christian and I beleive the Bible.

QUOTE

If your works were good enough by God's standards, you wouldn't need Jesus in the first place.

Quite the contrary. Paul repeatedly makes the statement that righteousness could never come by the law through man. If it could THEN Christ would not be needed.

But a dead, fallen creature, even if he could work perfectly, still could not give himself life. How could a dead being give life? How could a sinful creature even propitiate his own sins, let alone the sins of the world. Works have nothing to do with the Work of Christ on the Cross. Man has nothing to do with the Work on the Cross because he couldn't perform it anyway.

But works, ONLY works of righteousness will save your soul. It is the evidence of faith in God that you follow Him with obedience. It is obedience that actually saves you. Check with Adam. If he had remained obedient, would he not have been saved, (continued to walk and talk with God)?

You are incapbalbe of performing any works of righteousness that would be acceptable in God's sight. You still have a sin nature and that capacity taints all human performance in the sight of God.

But works, ONLY works of righteousness will save your soul

Sorry, but the Bible says otherwise:

But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:4-5)

QUOTE

The words mean what they mean, and you are impotent to demonstrate otherwise.

I have just refuted them. I have 2000+ years of historical records to numerous to even list or you don't have a lifetime long enough to read it all, stating exactly what I have just stated.

That is not a refutation. For one thing, anyone can come quote or cite people that agree with them. That is pretty much meaningless. The fact remains that words mean things. I am asking you to refute me with the text itself; I am asking you to prove that the text itself proves the merit of your position. That is called hermeneutics/exegesis and is crux of true manuscript scholarship. I have cited that "working out your salvation" is basically one word in Greek and it means to demonstrate your salvation outwardly. It does not mean that you are working to gain, secure or maintain salvation. You have simply to show me from the text itself out of Phillippians that the Greek word was meant to be understood otherwise. I don't care about what dead, rotting Pope thinks. I couldn't care less.

QUOTE

Nothing about this mythical partnership you espouse is not in the Bible.

The correct word is mystery. We are "born again" when we beleive In Christ. We enter into a spiritual, mutual, relationship, a partnership, of cooperation, in the salvation of our souls.

Read the NT once again, you missed it again.

No, YOU cite passages that outline and describe this mythical partnership. I want to see the specific passages from the New Testament that specifically, and epxressly describe and explain this "partnership." If you cannot produce them, then I there is no reason to believe anything you say.

QUOTE

You are not good enough to be in partnership with God. None of us are. There is NOTHING in the Bible that even hints that salvation is a partnership between us and God. That alone is the weakness of your point. You can go on and on about it, but you cannot back it up with the testimony of Scripture.

Like I stated before. It seems you have a much different Bible than most. I would say that maybe 80% of the NT alone speaks about man's relationship with God, a union, a mutual covenant.

The New Covenant was not made betwen God and mankind. The New Covenant is between the Father and Jesus. Jesus stood as man's covenant representative before God and the New Testament was cut in the blood of Jesus, not in our blood. You are beneficiary of that covenant, you receive the benefits of the Covenant, but you are not mutually in covenant with God.

QUOTE

Sorry but your "two salvations" teaching is not in the Bible. Each person is saved ONLY when they accept Christ as Savior. Nothing in the Bible indicates that mankind, in general was saved 2,000 years ago. Salvation was made available to all men, but it must accepted personally.

That is the point. You have already contradicted your own statement. You beleive He is the Savior. That work happened 2000 years ago and every human being was saved from the fall, from death, from the condemnation through Adam.

Sorry but the Bible does not teach that. Salvation is universally available, but it is not universally, unilaterally applied to each person. While the Bible makes it clear Jesus is the Savior of the world, it also qualifies that assertion with the truth that Jesus's Saviorship is ONLY realized on a personal basis. Salvation is here, and it is available and waiting, but that is not the same thing as saying that all men are saved. The Bible makes no such assertion.

Without writing the entire NT to show this, here is a start with Christ's redemptive work on the Cross overcoming death and sin for all, every single human being.

I'll let you look them up as this postwould be waaaaaay to long to write them and explain them.

God sent His Only Son, Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself, II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.

Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.

Yes, God, through Christ reconciled the world through Himself, and yes Christ's redemptive work is universal, but it does not follow and is not taught in Scripture that these things are automatically the possession of all mankind.

God has reconciled the world to Himself, and this simply means that God's justice has been satisfied and that God isn't holding anything against mankind any longer as Jesus has paid the price and satisfied the righteous demands of the law. And while God's redemptive work was for the whole world, again, the Bible qualifies that with the fact that salvation, while universally available must be and can ONLY be personally appropriated by trusting in God's grace.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

I said "SIN" not "SINS." My sin was nailed to cross with Christ. The confession of sins is not for God's benefit, but the cleansing of the conscience of man from guilt and condemnation.

As are all the sins of every single other human being who ever lived. Christ is the propitiation of the sins of the World, but expecially of believers. Christ died for sinners, not the righteous. If it is cleansing from condemnation, why is not that of God's benefit. If not washed, or cleansed, you cannot be accepted INTO Christ. He did it for you so that you can have this union with Him. He desires that all men come to know Him, that is why He propitiated the sins for all.

I sorry, I gues you don't understand. I am making a distinction between "SIN" (what we are born into) and "SINS" (the things we commit, evil works). This dichotomy is borne out in Romans 1:1-5:11 where Paul talks about SINS and the work of Christ's blood, and Romans 5:12-8:39 where Paul talks about SIN and the work of the cross. My SIN was nailed to the cross according to what Paul said in Eph. 2:15 and Col. 2:14.

Confession of sin has nothing to do with being accepted into Christ. It pertains to the cleansing of the conscience. We are accepted into the Christ upon receiving Him Lord and Savior and trusting in His finished work on the cross.

QUOTE

No, I cited Romans 6:23 which specifically denotes eternal life, which is not physical life at all.

Eternal life is physical life, it is immortality. Unless you think we are not physical, and we exist in some other form. What form do you think that might be if not physical?

No, the Bible states that eternal life is in Christ alone. He alone is eternal life and it is not found outside of Christ (1 John 5:11-13)

QUOTE

Yes, but that is dealing with a different issue, namely all men being made physically alive at the resurrection. Some being resurrected to eternal life and others to eternal damnation, and so this really not material to this discussion.

It is because that is precisely what you made the issue. you have also contridicted your earlier definition of eternal life. Here you also place it upon unbelievers, eternal damnation. That means eternal death, or what is known as the second death which is not physical but spiritual. A spiritual death cannot exist unless a person, a human being has life, physical. That is precisely why eternal life, means an everlasting, immortal physical life.

I have not contradicted anything. I have acknowledged that eternal life includes living forever, my point was that it does not stop there. Eternal life and Eternal damnation are not the same thing. My use of Eternal is consistent form the standpoint of longevity. Eternal life encompasses far, far, more than that, though. I simply use the term "eternal" do describe the longevity of the curse upon those who reject Christ. I could have easily used the term everlasting, and maybe that would have been a better word, but nonetheless, I did not contradict anything.

QUOTE

I have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. I would not and could not EVER subscribe to your false teachings as they are not based on Scriptures. I am a Christian and will only participate in true, biblical Christianity, not the slop of a works-based salvation that you espouse.

I fully understand your view. There are hundreds of them. They all claim as you do, but do not have a shred of evidence to even begin to show that it is the Gospel given to the Apostles, and preserved since by the Holy Spirit, unchanged, consistant in history. Christianity is not a personal gospel but a universal one. It was given ONCE for all mankind for all times. Yours can be your own, but it cannot be claimed as the Gospel given unless you can show historically that the Holy Spirit fulfilled His promise to preserve His Gospel as well as the Body of Christ in this world. Can you do that? Or are you satisfied with your personal interpretation of a Book, taken out of it full context and content? Christianity does not, has not existed in a vaccum and was absent untill you read the Bible and came up with your interpretation.

The gospel is very personal. God is concerned about both the world and each person. He numbers our hairs. God can walk with each person simultaneously while caring for the world as a whole.

The gospel in a nutshell bears this out.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(John 3:16-18)

Here we have both aspects of the personal and the universal. We see that God loved the entire world, and wants the world to be saved. However, it does not declare that the world is automatically saved. It is for "whosever" and "he that beleiveth." It is very personal, and to say otherwise is to deny the clear teaching of scripture.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 18 2007, 05:51 PM)

Once again, as I have noted previously in this thread, you also seem to overestimate the value of your works before God. You cannot do anything perfect enough to keep yourself in Christ. The righteous standard demanded by God has no margin for error, and we are already defeated before even leaving the gate because our works, no matter how good they may be, are tainted with the sin nature we are born with, which has not yet been eradicated. Even if you kept every commandment to the letter, nothing you have done would keep you in Christ. It is Christ who keeps us in Himself. He is the only one who can fulfill the righteousness of the law, and He does that in us. The righteousness of God's law cannot be fulfilled by us.

So, basically, it doesn't matter if I even try to do the will of God or not because we are still saved?

No, but that is the value people like you automatically default to because you are not concerned trying to understand the point. At no no time did I say it did not matter if we try to do the Will of God. What I am saying is that your works are not good enough to keep you in Christ.

You seem to operate from a very shallow view of what works are for. Our good works should be the outgrowth and demonstration of our faith. That is what they are for. It is important to do will of God, but it is foolish and quite arrogant to assume that your good works fulfill the righteousness of God's law. They don't and they can't. If that could be done, then Jesus' sacrifice would have been meaningless. Jesus death and finished redemptive work on the cross was predicated on the fact that man was incapable in himself to meet and much less, maintain God's standard of righteousness. Man was incapable of providing any solution or remedy to his sinful condition, and was thus in need of a Savior.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. He is the A and the Z. Salvation is not something Jesus gets started and then hands over to you to finish up. It is 100% a work of God.

Also, could you please elaborate what "fulfilling the righteousness of the law in me" is?

It is really, really simple.

Jesus was the only person in the world who every fulfilled perfectly the righteousness of God's law. Jesus lived perfectly and sinlessly before God the Father. The righteousness of the law was fulfilled at every point, making Jesus the only one who could die for man's sin.

The righteousness of the law that Jesus fulfilled has been imputed to us and since Jesus lives in us in the person of the Holy Spirit, His righteouness is, everyday being fulfilled and worked within us. It is the righteousness of Christ that God sees, not your putrid, filthy, wretched works into which you placed so much misguided faith at the expense of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Your works cannot produce the rightesousness necessary for salvation. The works that save are the works of Christ upon the cross.

What's happening is that people are making the work that Christ did on the cross to be Christianity in its entirety.

No, we are making it to be salvation in its entirety.

The work that Christ did on the cross was complete and everybody is correct that there is nothing that we can do to add to it, but that is not all that is required from man. We have also been given the commandment to obey the commandments. Also, what people are doing is associating that the keeping of the commandments are taking away from what Christ did on the cross. They are not.

This nonsense has been refuted so many times in so many other threads. No one has ever diminished the need for keeping the commandments, and that has never been the point. Unfortunately, since you cannot come up with anything else, this is the same, archaic, worn out, default argument you always run to. Keeping the commandments are necessary, but not necessary for salvation.

The "Plan of salvation" begins at the cross.

No, it begins at the cross and ends when a person accepts Christ as their Savior. Salvation is wholly a work of God.

You say that we are incapable of performing any works of righteousness that would be acceptable in God's sight, but I say this -

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

When we walk as Christ walked and keep the commandments of God we have a relationship with him. I don't see how anybody can say that keeping the commandments of God is any way, shape, or form of taking away from Christ or what he did on the Cross.

John 14:15-16 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Cardcaptor, what I said is that you are incapable of performing any works of good enough to meet God's standard of perfection. For your works to able to keep you in Christ, you would have to be as sinless as Jesus was, and that is not going to happen. Nothing you can do will ever meet God's standard as it is tainted with your sin.

Our keeping of the commandments according to those to verses only demonstrate what I am saying. 1John 3:24 simply states that keeping His commandments shows that we are abiding in Him. John says that if you dwell in Christ you will keep His commandments. Nothing in that verse says you dwell Him BECAUSE you keep the commandments, rather the text indicates that obedience is the product of dwelling in Christ. Abiding in Christ produces the obedience, according to John. Obedience does not produce the abiding.

In John 14:15-16, Jesus says that our obedience is the out working of our love for Him. "If you love, me, demonstrate it by keeping my commandments." Keeping the commandments are necessary for demonstrating our relationship with Christ and our love for Him.

Neither of those verses indicate that we are saved by what we do.

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh,

While God is the source of all life and sustains life on this planet, that is not material to this discussion.

It is the only thing that IS germaine to the discussion. The discussion would be moot, meaningless unless Christ is indeed the Savior of the World. He restored the Image of God in man by restoring life, eternal life, immortality. Without it we are but dust, death rules and we end our existance upon our biological death.

The diifference is that eternal life is not a place or even a length of time. Eternal life is Jesus. You can live forever and not have eternal life. Jesus is eternal life and Jesus is salvation. Jesus' real Name is Yeshua, which means "salvation." Eternal life is not merely living forever but also denotes a quality of life, namely is the life of God Himself. Furthermore, the Bible says:

You have it right on. It is Christ. He is the LIFE of the World. The quality between life is life with Christ or life without Him. It is still all life, immortal, eternal existance of man. God did not desire to destroy, or permit death to destroy any creature that was made in His Image.

You better look at your definitions. If you live forever, you have eternal life. You have immortal life. There are ONLY two states of existance for mankind remaining. Mortal and immortal. When Christ comes again, death, the last enemy will have been totally defeated which means there is no more mortal nature for anyone. We are all going to be immortal and eternal.

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13)

The ultimate goal of God was to have mankind restored to his prefall state. That is what Christ accomplished for mankind otherwise there could be no freedom IN Christ. Notice that the context is about believers, the ultimate goal. Those that believe will have eternal life but eternal life with HIM. Huge difference.

Now, the above passage tells me, that eternal life is in Christ. It also tells me that a person that does not have Jesus, does not have eternal life. So, while every will live forever, only Christians will eternal life. This is further supported by both John 11:25-26 and John 14:6 which teach us that Jesus Himself is the eternal life. Jesus does not claim to be eternal life for the world. Jesus said that he is the resurrection and the life for those who believe in Him, and that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life ONLY for those who come to the Father through him.

Nice creation of a dicotomy which does not exist in scripture. Christ is the LIFE of the world. The Incarnation means that very thing. Christ assumed our fallen human natures to restore those natues to life. Believers and unbelievers do not change the essence of human natures when they believe. When Adam fell the condemnation against him was through man nature. That is why we inherit death upon birth. We are born dead, mortal. So the solution would of necessity be the same. Christ becoming consubstantial with man by assuming our natues from the Virgin Mary. Very direct, very simple if you understand the nature of the fall, thus salvation from that fall.

The Bible says, and I just cited it above that the rightesouness of the law is being fulfilled in us. Now, I see that you are not above disputing what is plainly written in Scripture. Jesus came that the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in us. It is plainly stated. You can say it isn't so, but I am a Christian and I beleive the Bible.

it simply means our human nature. He did it through our natues, us, mankind, all human beings. We could not do it, so He took on our natures, the us, mankind, to fulfill the law of righteousness.

You are incapbalbe of performing any works of righteousness that would be acceptable in God's sight. You still have a sin nature and that capacity taints all human performance in the sight of God.

So we just sit back and do nothing and then complain to God that He left us with a sinful nature, shame on Him. Quite the contrary. Get about doing the will of My Father. We are to immitate Him. He is the model and example for our lives. He did not sit back and say to His Father, I don't need to do anything, I'll just let you do it.

You are actually denying the purpose for which you were created. To be in union with God eternally, working in concert with Him.

Sorry, but the Bible says otherwise:

Show me any text that refutes what I stated and supports your understanding.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:4-5)

Here it explains both ways but the context does not support your understanding throughout the rest of the Bible.

Mankind is saved by Grace. We did not do anything to save ourselves from the fall, from death. Works are meaningless. the second part deals with the acceptance of the offer of our salvation from death. But even that is all Grace since the work of regneration is of God, though man must cooperate. The cooperation is not shown here which is why it does not support your theory. We are ONLY reconciled to God by faith. It is our faith. We believe, it is not God that believes for us. Then we repent, we seek to be IN Christ by baptism and then recieve the Holy Spirit. Our salvation that follows is a road, a journey of working together to enable God to conform us to His image. We remain in Him through obedience, service, loving all men, etc. That is our work. Read the 10 commandments of the NT, called the Beatitudes, Matt 5.

That is not a refutation. For one thing, anyone can come quote or cite people that agree with them. That is pretty much meaningless.

That is true, but can you find individuals who have agreed with the same teaching in every generation from all part of the world for 2000 years. Yet, I challenge you to find someone in your lifetime that can duplicate your faith as you understand it its totality. Now do it for 2000 years across the globe.

The fact remains that words mean things. I am asking you to refute me with the text itself; I am asking you to prove that the text itself proves the merit of your position. That is called hermeneutics/exegesis and is crux of true manuscript scholarship.

But that is the point. It has been done consistantly the same for 2000 years. That meaning has never changed from the Apostles who first gave it.