Can A Christian Support War

[OneAccord]

This will be my last post on this board, other than completing my Lord's Prayer Bible Study. I have decided to move on as my presence here appears to be offensive to some, and our dialog is no longer bearing righteous fruit. May the Spirit of God in the person of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of All reign in each of your hearts forevermore. :il:

Pacifism is not a biblical concept. Most of them are universalists, new-agers, PETA radicals, and & environmental whackos.

Yep, that's me alright.

A universalist, I am believing that Jesus Christ won a total and absolute victory on the cross.

A New-ager, kingdom age, that is, new earth, new heaven, you know what I mean?

An environmental whacko. I am madly and passionately in love with God's beautiful creation and can't stand to see the pollution, deforestation, oil spills, plundering and raping of the earth, etc. Guess that makes me a whacko, amen.

PETA? Don't know what that is, sorry.

As for abortion rights, these are hands shedding innocnet blood, one of the seven abominations in the eyes of the Lord. However, I do believe that when these ladies come to Jesus Christ, they will be absolutely forgiven. And the babies are in heaven, too, by the way.

Sportster

One,you mentioned 'ONE' example....now,how about the other mulititude,hmmm???

I could give you scriptures all day long to support my beliefs, but I am always told that I am twisting them, taking them out of context, or whatever. So what's the point? Fodder for the mill.

Shiloh

As long as there are those who are willing to fight for freedom and are willing to lay down their lives in defense of the defenseless, pacifists will never have to worry about death. REAL Christians will always be there to protect them.

I have never called your Christianity to account as much as we have debated all these months. I don't doubt that you love Jesus very much.

As for me, I guess I'm not a REAL Christian, so I guess I'll just pack up and go home. As far as I'm concerned, you have crossed the line with comments like this one, and I will no longer dialog with you. You'll just have to find someone else to trash and slander.

By the way, according to Matthew 5:11 you have blessed me, thank you.

Dear Russell,

Your post was very gentle, and I see a searching heart in you in this and other posts I have seen from you. May you always have a soft heart and an inquiring mind, and don't be afraid to ask questions and stand for what you believe. May His love be shed abroad in your heart and abound and flow like fountain unto all those He sends to you. He needs more warriors like you.

Nebula

Otherwise, I do not believe "turning the other cheek" means, "Let an evil man have his way with you." If you are unable to use the power of God, then physical force is the only other option left to you.

The verse about turning the other cheek goes like this: But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. Matthew 5:38

I consider Matthew 5&6 (the Sermon on the Mount) to be the most profound, beautiful and powerful message in the universe, I try to live my life accordingly, renew my mind accordingly, and use it as a lens for understanding the heart and will of God.

I am so sorry Nebula that these conversations tend to upset you, I can assure you I am not the only Christian who has ever taken a strong and pasionate stand against war, many unto bloodshed and their final victory in Christ Jesus. My prayer for you is that you keep your heart and condemn not your brother or sister.

ted: You are truly a son of God, may His sun shine upon you brighter and brighter unto that perfect day.

THE JEWISH VIEW OF THE KINGDOM

The children of Israel, especially when they suffered the captivity and bondage of Babylon, longed and prayed to be restored unto the Promised Land. They prayed and yearned for the coming of Messiah and the Kingdom of God. Again, when the gall and heaviness of the Roman yoke fell upon them, the Pharisees and scribes looked and longed for the coming of Messiah. Whenever the Kingdom of God would come the Roman eagles would no more scream in triumph over their land, and the hated heels of the soldiers would forever be silenced from their streets. Jerusalem would then be the capital of this glorious Kingdom, and every nation under the sun would do homage and pay tribute. On the throne of David in Jerusalem would the King of kings sit and sway His scepter of righteousness, love and mercy over His chosen people throughout eternity. Thus the Jews hoped and believed. Thus many of my Anglo-Israel friends still believe. The Jews conceived of a visible material Kingdom, like that of David; righteousness was to characterize it, but it was to be enforced by military might, ruled by external laws, and administrated by political and economic institutions, attended with great prosperity and extended over all the earth. Most of the views of the church systems today respecting the second coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom in person on the earth CORRESPOND EXACTLY WITH THE JEWISH EXPECTATION. But this is not the view of King Jesus!

THE KINGDOM WITHIN

I do not hesitate to tell you that the sphere of the Kingdom is the individual heart. This is the end for which man was made, the final cause of his creation, that he might be a province and principality of God: the King eternal septering him throughout his whole nature, spirit, soul and body.

The Kingdom is, first and foremost, the reign of God in the hearts and lives of men. Less than this it cannot be; more than this it will not be. There is no department of human life where the Kingdom can rule unless first God rules the heart. God cannot rule nations until first He rules in the hearts of the citizens of those nations from the king, president or prime minister all the way down to the garbage collector and the shoeshine boy. God cannot rule over things or institutions until first He rules the hearts of those who form, own and control those things and institutions. Imagine God trying to rule over an army without first winning the allegiance of the general who commands that army and the soldiers who fight in it!

Is it not a right thing and a possible thing, that all men should in their hearts yield allegiance to God? And were this allegiance yielded, would it not necessarily result that all our relations with one another would be transformed and hallowed by the law of His life within? Would it not necessarily result that the whole constitution of the world, in all its domestic, political, social and economic arrangements, would be guided by the Spirit of God and would show in every situation and circumstance that God was ruling? You see, to bring the Kingdom of God to pass in the earth does not require that all forms of government and all institutions be changed

[nebula]

Nebula

Otherwise, I do not believe "turning the other cheek" means, "Let an evil man have his way with you." If you are unable to use the power of God, then physical force is the only other option left to you.

The verse about turning the other cheek goes like this: But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. Matthew 5:38

I consider Matthew 5&6 (the Sermon on the Mount) to be the most profound, beautiful and powerful message in the universe, I try to live my life accordingly, renew my mind accordingly, and use it as a lens for understanding the heart and will of God.

I am sorry One Accord is leaving. I really do like her.

I didn't want to get into any more fights over this issue. But I did want to clarify what I mant by my statement here. I've talked about this in another thread in another forum.

The only way a person could slap you on the right cheek (notice the right cheek was singled out) is to either slap you with the left hand or the back of the right hand. In that culture, either way was considered an insult. It seems the passage isn't so much about being attacked as it is about being insulted.

By turning the other cheek, then, you are both not insultiong back and declaring that if you are to slap me it will be done with dignity.

To put this verse into modern lingo then would be to say,

"If someone is a jerk towards you, don't be a jerk back."

(ie. If someone cuts you off in traffic, don't call him names.)

As such, I am not so sure this verse refers to someone who is trying to rob, rape, or kill you or those you love.

This is how I understand this verse, and I just wanted to clarify that point so that you would understand where I was coming from, even if you disagree with me.

Blessings!

[Russell]

This will be my last post on this board, other than completing my Lord's Prayer Bible Study.  I have decided to move on as my presence here appears to be offensive to some, and our dialog is no longer bearing righteous fruit.  May the Spirit of God in the person of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of All reign in each of your hearts forevermore.  :il:

[Dear Russell,

Your post was very gentle, and I see a searching heart in you in this and other posts I have seen from you.  May you always have a soft heart and an inquiring mind, and don't be afraid to ask questions and stand for what you believe.  May His love be shed abroad in your heart and abound and flow like fountain unto all those He sends to you.  He needs more warriors like you.

Hi OneAccord,

Thanks for comments, I try hard to allow room for my error as tomorrow God may give me a new perspective and i will then have to apologize for my words to others.

We are all on a journey...just some are down the road a little further...some are leaving the road and need bringing back...some have fallen down and need helping up...and some haven't even started the journey and need to be shown the way.

I do not get offended by others comments, no matter how harsh they may be...you see these ones need the gentle touch of the Spirit in their lives and how blessed i am to be able to share it.

Jesus will never leave us...even if we leave Him for a period...so why should I be any different.

For me this board has been both a challenge and a blessing and I pray that my fellowshipping on this board may both enrich me and others.

Blessings in Jesus.

[Guest Sportster]

One,if you want a board where they don't tolerate any discussions of issues,try Rapture Ready. The mods there are very heavy handed and you'll probably find their umbrella comforting.

[Adstar]

One Accord :il:

I would just like to say that i have been blessed to have had fellowship with you. I am saddened by your belief in universalisim, i hope one day you will be freed from that deception.

It is true that you have been unjustly accused it seems that Yod and shiloh 357 have been given a license by the moderators on this board to be as mean and as insulting as they like. But remember One Accord no matter how much their words hurt it is a blessing to be persecuted for ones conscience to the Word Of God :hug: .

May you grow in humility and be blessed with understanding on all of His Word.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

[Guest yod]

It is true that you have been unjustly accused it seems that Yod and shiloh 357 have been given a license by the moderators on this board to be as mean and as insulting as they like.

What was she accused of unjustly or otherwise?

Look man....I can be tough when it's a war of words...but mean and insulting?

Is that not an insult itself?

I'm sorry that she can't take it anymore. I'm tired of the same-old-same-old, too. All she has to do is give us a reason why scipture on war is limited to one or two verses of the Bible while the rest of the verses disproving her agenda are irrelevant.

....and this could be over in one thread.

What was said by me that was mean or insulting? That pacifists are generally not christians? Is that not true? I'm trying to figure out how a christian can be SO attached to a non-christian agenda.

If you consider it "mean" to aggresively oppose someone's position when it is wrong then I'm guilty as charged. If it is insulting to call a lie by it's true name then so be it.

Yes, I've been tough with OA....especially lately. That is because I disagree with her ideas and she continually posts the same disproven/opinionated stuff because she WANTS to argue. If she posts something knowing that it is disagreeable to most people here...is that my fault? I would like to know her motive for continually doing that.

And yes, I strongly come against those whacked out conspiracy theories about how evil America is because of Americans. Every problem in the world can be traced back to us because we're so stinking evil!

She further advocates that we should stick our head in the sand and hope that terrorism goes away. That is dangerous thinking, Adstar.

I can't ignore it when it is repeated constantly....but I get no pleasure in seeing One Accord leave.

[ted]

Somewhere in the Bible there is a verse that reads something like "a house divided against itself cannot stand"

I urge all of us to read over our last ten posts or so and enter a bit of reflection.

May God change our hearts.

t.

PS- OA, you are the most beautiful person I've never physically met. Keep the faith and hope to see (read) you soon.

[Russell]

As long as there are those who are willing to fight for freedom and are willing to lay down their lives in defense of the defenseless, pacifists will never have to worry about death.  REAL Christians will always be there to protect them.

Possibly shiloh,

But can I add that Jesus had His Fathers will to fulfill... that involved suffering death as a pacifist, if you want...as a lamb to the slaughter. Now this happened to fulfill YHWH purposes in Him for mankind.

Not all are called to this end...for many do go to war as directed by their Governments...many Christians also. I do not judge them...for it may be that God had such a plan for them at that time in their life. I personally have struggled with this issue for many years and when and if the time arose would seek out God's direction on this issue.

But I must say I have come to the position of being a noncombatant, even though the man inside of me is saying go and fight. There are many verses that have lead me in this direction and it may not be for everyone, but can I just add that if I die because I am pacifist (as did Stephen and in fact most of the Apostles)... but have Jesus...have I not gained victory...just a thought!!

Blessings

[Guest shiloh357]

It is true that you have been unjustly accused it seems that Yod and shiloh 357 have been given a license by the moderators on this board to be as mean and as insulting as they like.

OneAccord suffers from a self-imposed persecution complex. She is entirely disingenuous in how she approaches the concept of pacifism. I do not agree with pacifism, but I could at least respect her beliefs if she were not so one-sided in her application. When we disagree with her she claims that we are somehow persecuting, and reviling her. We are not persecuting her, just correcting her. No one attacked her. No one ever said that pacifists are bad people.

Frankly I was not mean to her, I was just honest. No one attacked her. No one starated any "anti-OneAccord" campaigns. None of us started threads attacking pacifism. She was the one who brought up the subject. She was the one who started trying to push pacifism on us as the true expression of Christianity. No one really cares if she is a pacifist or not!! She posted things that she KNEW would start arguments, and therefore she is as guilty as anyone of any "divisiveness" on this board.

The problem is when she uses pacifism to justify her anti-war agenda and only applies it the United States and its war on terrorism. She refuses, even though she has been asked, to apply it to the terrorists as well. So, in reality she is not a TRUE pacifist. She won't condemn terrorism, just those who don't want to be terrorized.

She has been disproven on so many occasions I have lost count. Frankly, she wanted to argue, or she would not have been so militant in trying force pacifism on the Scriptures. I am not against anyone being nonviolent, but they needn't think that I am going sit around while my country is unnecessarily maligned.

[Guest Sportster]

Discussions exist for expressing thoughts to one another and sometimes thoughts will differ. This is one occasion of that. Is that wrong? I sure hope not! Did anyone here ever take debate? Were you offended if you did? Is debate evil? If someone said to you 'You're a wicked,evil so and so and you deserve to burn in hell!!'...well,then,yea....you might consider yourself 'offended'. But if someone attacked your idea and not YOU,were you still offended?? If so,maybe you shouldn't get involved in debates of ideas,because there is sometimes considerable back and forth involved.