Those who were left out

[JB Horn]

As for Ayin Jade's post, I still believe Paul is speaking about the Law as regards to the Gentiles.

I don't know about Jade's post but mine was from Rom 9

14

[stan4257]

It is not easy to reach agreement with statements that include words like or similar to, "No man comes to the Father except by me." and "God is love" and the God of Christianity's very nature (if not existence) depends upon the answer to this question." and "The question being what happens when they die to those who have never heard of Jesus Christ?"

But though it is not easy, answers are not impossible. the challenge lies in not taking statements as if in a sequence of logic, but starting with what one knows personally and extrapolating from there.

For example, I know from personal experience over many long years that a relationship exists between me and a loving Heavenly Father that has come about because of my faith in Jesus anointed as Christ. From within that relationship, as a tiny child of what that relationship involves, and within the love and comfort that the relationship gives to me, I can ask questions of my Heavenly Father, and receive answers to the extent that I am capable of understanding them, or framed so that the answers will not do me harm.

From that situation, my concern for what happens to others is evidence of the love in my heart, and not a theoretical or rhetorical question. That in itself is evidence of my relationship, because the anointing of Christ with the spirit of God is concern for the poor and oppressed, including those who have never heard of Jesus Christ.

The next important thing is that I am not agitated or dismayed when the answer does not fit my childish, limited knowledge base, because the relationship in which I joyfully exist persuades me that even if I do not know, my loving Heavenly Father does, and I trust him to deal with the challenge.

The questions will depend for answers on whether they come from within a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, or from without as a challenge to God and Jesus Christ. It is not possible to be without that relationship and understand the emotions and interactions that go on within it, nor is it possible to be within that relationship and doubt whatever that relationship involves, however little the process may be understood.

It becomes a simple question of "I believe help my unbelief" or I don't believe, help me to prove why I don't.

Edited November 1, 2007 by stan4257

[WayneB]

I'm sure this question has been asked before, maybe even by me, but it still haunts me to this day. So I will ask it in the hopes that someone can give me an answer to calm my conscience.

Throughout history and still today, there are people who have never heard the word of God or of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that no one will get to the Father except through me. If this is true, what happens to someone who never even had a chance to hear about Jesus? What if there is a remote tribe on an island off of Africa that has never heard of Jesus Christ? Does that tribe go to hell simply because they were never given the chance to make the decision to follow Christ? If so, does that truly make God merciful?

Brother, it is an honest question. I have provided two links that I thought you may find interesting.

The first is to a thread from a few years back in which we discussed the topic. http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=5854 There were various opinions voiced on that thread, some based on sound doctrine and others based on feelings. Even brother George posted... you may be interested in his thoughts (posts 17 and 27). Unfortuantely the thread turned into a harsh debate and was closed.

The second is a booklet from RBC Ministries, a trustworthy source. It is titled, "What about those who have never heard" and can be downloaded at http://www.rbc.org/uploadedFiles/Bible_Stu...never_heard.pdf.

The thing to know without doubt is that NO one is left out...period. The author of the booklet wrote, "As we take a closer look, we do so with this confidence: If at any point we find ourselves doubting God

[KeilanS]

I see what you're saying, i think. So you mean that Jesus still has the power to save people who have never heard His name... correct? Well then we should consider the passage John 6: 53-57:

53Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. 54He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me.

It seems He is saying that unless you eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, then you will not have eternal life.

[OneLight]

I will say this one more time: Jesus Christ HIMSELF said that NO ONE will get to the FATHER except THROUGH HIM. I don't see any exception in Jesus' words. There is just no way around them. So was Jesus lying? Did Jesus actually say that? Or was that simply John's theological agenda putting words in Jesus' mouth?

Jesus was speaking to those who could hear, and would hear, His words. This can not include those who never heard. The Bible could not hold everything that is in Gods plan. It is more of an instructional manual for us, not a 100% end all to God. God is greater then we will ever know while living this life.

And if it is true, then why would a GOD OF LOVE do such a terrible thing? You can tell me that God has the power to choose whatever He wants, but I cannot and will not worship a God who sends someone to Hell who He intentionally put in a position that they had no other choice.

As for the part about how the hypothetical tribesman should search out for "a faith" if he truly wants to be morally correct, how is this tribesman supposed to do it? If this person is in a place where Chrsitianity hasn't reached him yet, what makes you think they will have an extensive library with books on every different religion?

You must be misunderstanding what I wrote, if you are referring to my post. God makes Himself known through His creation. When we realize that a greater being must of created all that there is, we start to search for this greater being. If we never have heard of God, in any form, then we would acknowledge a God that did create all that is created. I believe this is how a tribesman would find their faith.

Again, the God of Christianity's very nature (if not existence) depends upon the answer to this question. You can deny that all you want, but it will get you nowhere.

Another side note: If Paul is telling us that those apart from the Law are judged apart from the Law and if those who he talks about are people who will never have the chance to even hear the name of Jesus, then is He not blatantly contradicting the words of Jesus? I don't think there is any way to get around what Jesus said. And I personally give more credit to Jesus than to Paul.

Not trying to get around anything that is in the Bible, but I do believe that there is more to God and His judgment of mankind then what is in His Word. Try to understand that the Bible is meant for those of us who have the ability to hear or read it. Not for those who will never get that chance. This is where God will judge the heart of man, according to their life. If a tribesman has lived a God fearing life, even though they never heard of God, I believe that God will grant them salvation due to what they knew and how they lived.

Since there is nothing in the Bible to really support this theory, I can only stand on this as my personal belief.

[zaidenmom]

Tell me how many of the remote tribe on that island off of Africa are without sin?

JB

None of them. Are you without sin? No you are not. Do you go to heaven? Yes you do. Why? Because you fall under the Grace of Jesus Christ. Do these hypothetical tribesmen fall under the Grace of Christ? No. Have they had the oppurtunity to fall under that Grace? No they haven't. So do they go to hell? I certainly hope not. That would make me a bit suspicious of God's mercy (and logic).

There, I just saved us from having a long conversation by stating the entire thing in one post.

Are you saying that God is unjust if He choose to send sinners to hell? Is this not His sovereign right? Is not grace and forgiveness His to give?

Who makes the choice of the circumstances of where these hypothetical tribesmen were born?

JB

Rom 9:14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy.

good point!!! GOD is the creator of ALL things, HE will make a way for them to hear.

zaidenmom

[Smalcald]

Indeed.

Over and over in scripture we see cases of people coming to the Gospel through NO seeking of their own. In fact if you read the Gospel accounts most of the people who followed Christ were called by Christ to come to Him, they did not seek Christ first, and this includes the apostle Paul, Peter, Matthew etc.

Part of our problem is that we have developed a formula view of conversion in the last 100 years and somehow feel that people who don't follow that formula will not be saved or are not saved.

We cannot save ourselves, we are dead in trespasses and sins, and ALL we can do is not run from Christ when He calls. There is nothing in us who do believe that is better or more righteous than those who currently don't believe, we believe because Christ put faith in us, not because we generated faith through our own efforts. The most we can say about ourselves is that like Paul we did not turn away from Christ when He called us, that is it.

Given that, how can we say for certain how Christ will deal with the billions of humans He has created over the eons, except to know that He is more merciful than any of us would be!

[Smalcald]

I know what you mean thoughtful.

But why did Jesus have to die?

But if we are simply judged on our character we are all doomed. We are saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus at least that is what Christians believe. So what about these other people, they to if they are going to be saved will be saved by the grace of Christ. Now the one choice we do have is to walk away from that grace. People that go to hell will choose to go to hell. That sounds kind of crazy but it isn't really. Satan knew God personally is a great angel, and he chose hell over the humility it would take to bow to God. I think we can get an indicator from that of what type of people will not want this grace. In the Gospel of John he talks about people not coming to the light because they don't want to be exposed, they like their sin and want to keep it. In Revelation we hear of the horrible judgements of Christ and yet people still refused to repent, they liked their sin, they would not bow to any authority but their own ego. Is that a character quality? Maybe but we are all in the same boat.

In way though isn't our very speculation about these matters arrogant? Who are we to meddle in such things as the eternal salvation of somebody else's soul and how God will do that? In a way the whole idea of speculating about who is "in" and who is "out" is not what our Savior was about when He walked the earth, it is more like some sort of high school clique.

[systemstrike_7]

I know what you mean thoughtful.

But why did Jesus have to die?

But if we are simply judged on our character we are all doomed. We are saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus at least that is what Christians believe. So what about these other people, they to if they are going to be saved will be saved by the grace of Christ. Now the one choice we do have is to walk away from that grace. People that go to hell will choose to go to hell. That sounds kind of crazy but it isn't really. Satan knew God personally is a great angel, and he chose hell over the humility it would take to bow to God. I think we can get an indicator from that of what type of people will not want this grace. In the Gospel of John he talks about people not coming to the light because they don't want to be exposed, they like their sin and want to keep it. In Revelation we hear of the horrible judgements of Christ and yet people still refused to repent, they liked their sin, they would not bow to any authority but their own ego. Is that a character quality? Maybe but we are all in the same boat.

In way though isn't our very speculation about these matters arrogant? Who are we to meddle in such things as the eternal salvation of somebody else's soul and how God will do that? In a way the whole idea of speculating about who is "in" and who is "out" is not what our Savior was about when He walked the earth, it is more like some sort of high school clique.

Here's what i was saying, smal, is that only the people whom havent heard of Christ will be judged based on character and integrity. Those of us fortunate enough to hear of Christ are judged based on our decision to follow or not. I dont think there is an ultimate paridigm as to how people will be judged, and furthermore, i personally dont put much stock into the afterlife. Through research i have found that Jesus was very concerned with the day and time in which he lived. Therefore so am I. Im not worried about where im going, to heaven or to hell, and more so i dont really believe in a heaven or a hell. Im not living life with the goal being to get to heaven. Too many Christians are living that way, and it's selfish. To many churches are preaching this way, and its selfish. Our goal should not be to use people as rungs of our little ladder to heaven. Our goal should not be to condemn non-believers to hell.

You don't believe in a heaven or a hell? Then what do you believe happens after we die?

[systemstrike_7]

I know what you mean thoughtful.

But why did Jesus have to die?

But if we are simply judged on our character we are all doomed. We are saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus at least that is what Christians believe. So what about these other people, they to if they are going to be saved will be saved by the grace of Christ. Now the one choice we do have is to walk away from that grace. People that go to hell will choose to go to hell. That sounds kind of crazy but it isn't really. Satan knew God personally is a great angel, and he chose hell over the humility it would take to bow to God. I think we can get an indicator from that of what type of people will not want this grace. In the Gospel of John he talks about people not coming to the light because they don't want to be exposed, they like their sin and want to keep it. In Revelation we hear of the horrible judgements of Christ and yet people still refused to repent, they liked their sin, they would not bow to any authority but their own ego. Is that a character quality? Maybe but we are all in the same boat.

In way though isn't our very speculation about these matters arrogant? Who are we to meddle in such things as the eternal salvation of somebody else's soul and how God will do that? In a way the whole idea of speculating about who is "in" and who is "out" is not what our Savior was about when He walked the earth, it is more like some sort of high school clique.

Here's what i was saying, smal, is that only the people whom havent heard of Christ will be judged based on character and integrity. Those of us fortunate enough to hear of Christ are judged based on our decision to follow or not. I dont think there is an ultimate paridigm as to how people will be judged, and furthermore, i personally dont put much stock into the afterlife. Through research i have found that Jesus was very concerned with the day and time in which he lived. Therefore so am I. Im not worried about where im going, to heaven or to hell, and more so i dont really believe in a heaven or a hell. Im not living life with the goal being to get to heaven. Too many Christians are living that way, and it's selfish. To many churches are preaching this way, and its selfish. Our goal should not be to use people as rungs of our little ladder to heaven. Our goal should not be to condemn non-believers to hell.

You don't believe in a heaven or a hell? Then what do you believe happens after we die?

Thats just it. I believe that very question, "Where will I go when I die?", is selfish. I dont care where i go. I believe that if i live as Christ lived, stay faithful to my wife, faithful to God, love my family, then life right now will be wonderful. I want to live life to the fullest, i want to enrich relationships. I want to love people, and serve people. If all i do between now and death is deepen one relationship, if all i do between now and death is set in concrete one friendship, in and through Christ, then i've succeeded. I want to live as Jesus lived. I dont want to always keep a wary eye on my soul, and worry about death, and after death. What a horrible waste of this beautiful live i've been given. To just want to rush to the end. I hear Christians non-stop say "I wish i could just get to heaven." "Oh if only Jesus would come now."

Come ON. Lets live!!! Lets enrich our lives through relationship with other people, lets dare to cross the line and turn friendships into extended family members. I say stop being perfect, or trying to achieve perfection. I find it sad to think that most Christians are so unhappy with their lives because they try to reach a standard set for them by people who couldn't attain it themselves, and all because they think its biblical.

Wow, that is crazy. But it is absolutely right. I believe you are about one in a million my friend. I'm very impressed. I use to believe that the only reason people started "religions" was to comfort themselves. They just wanted to believe that life after this was going to be perfect, and then rules and regulations followed soon after. But you make a very good point. If only the entire world had that philosophy. But I'm afraid that will never happen.