Kansasdad Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted November 21, 2007 coequal... The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. 42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here Matt 12:41-42 (KJV) Jesus was greater than Jonah and Solomon. Agreed? Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John 14:28 (KJV) The Father is greater than Jesus. Agreed? Probably not, and from both camps. The trinity camp says coequal. The oneness camp says the Father and Jesus are the same one, leaving the greatness/lesserthan question unanswered. The bible is right, even if we can't easily figure it out. K.D. How can the Son and the Father be coequal if Jesus says that the Father is greater? Jesus, The author of life, humbled himself in obedience to the father and became flesh. Coequal is your word not mine. They coexist, but yet are one. Yes this is a mystery, a mystery given to us by scripture. Yes it is beyond our comprehension. Therefore I choose to have faith in what scripture tells me even if I don't understand it. You are trying to reduce God to your understanding. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrs Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,081 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/13/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2007 The Father is who Jesus was b4 he set aside his deity to become a man. The problem with "who Jesus was" requires that God change. This violates mainstream Christian orthodox theology that God is immutable - He cannot change... Amen Shlomo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherTraveler Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,595 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2007 coequal... The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. 42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here Matt 12:41-42 (KJV) Jesus was greater than Jonah and Solomon. Agreed? Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John 14:28 (KJV) The Father is greater than Jesus. Agreed? Probably not, and from both camps. The trinity camp says coequal. The oneness camp says the Father and Jesus are the same one, leaving the greatness/lesserthan question unanswered. The bible is right, even if we can't easily figure it out. K.D. How can the Son and the Father be coequal if Jesus says that the Father is greater? Jesus, The author of life, humbled himself in obedience to the father and became flesh. Coequal is your word not mine. They coexist, but yet are one. Yes this is a mystery, a mystery given to us by scripture. Yes it is beyond our comprehension. Therefore I choose to have faith in what scripture tells me even if I don't understand it. You are trying to reduce God to your understanding. God Bless, K.D. Actually, coequal is not my word, but it comes from the trinity doctrine itself. http://www.allaboutgod.com/trinity-doctrine.htm Trinity Doctrine - Foundation of the Christian Faith What is the Trinity Doctrine? In a nutshell, there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son (Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit. The three persons of the Godhead are coequal and co-eternal (Genesis 1:26, Isaiah 9:6, Matthew 3:16-17; 28:19, Luke 1:35, Hebrews 3:7-11, and 1 John 5:7). Yes it is beyond our comprehension. Yet, not beyond our ability to define it and demand others to agree with the definition of that which is not comprehendable. http://www.allaboutgod.com/trinity-doctrine.htm Trinity Doctrine - How Can We Comprehend It? The most difficult thing about the Trinity Doctrine is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely higher than we are, therefore we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God (Exodus 3:14), that Jesus is God (John 8:58), and that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). The Bible also teaches that there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; James 2:19). How these two statements of doctrine can both be true is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this doesn't mean that they're both not true. So, if you can't comprehend it, you can't understand it, and you can't explain it, why in the world would you believe that you can define it? And why should anyone trust your definition ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted November 21, 2007 coequal... The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. 42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here Matt 12:41-42 (KJV) Jesus was greater than Jonah and Solomon. Agreed? Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John 14:28 (KJV) The Father is greater than Jesus. Agreed? Probably not, and from both camps. The trinity camp says coequal. The oneness camp says the Father and Jesus are the same one, leaving the greatness/lesserthan question unanswered. The bible is right, even if we can't easily figure it out. K.D. How can the Son and the Father be coequal if Jesus says that the Father is greater? Jesus, The author of life, humbled himself in obedience to the father and became flesh. Coequal is your word not mine. They coexist, but yet are one. Yes this is a mystery, a mystery given to us by scripture. Yes it is beyond our comprehension. Therefore I choose to have faith in what scripture tells me even if I don't understand it. You are trying to reduce God to your understanding. God Bless, K.D. Actually, coequal is not my word, but it comes from the trinity doctrine itself. http://www.allaboutgod.com/trinity-doctrine.htm Trinity Doctrine - Foundation of the Christian Faith What is the Trinity Doctrine? In a nutshell, there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son (Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit. The three persons of the Godhead are coequal and co-eternal (Genesis 1:26, Isaiah 9:6, Matthew 3:16-17; 28:19, Luke 1:35, Hebrews 3:7-11, and 1 John 5:7). Yes it is beyond our comprehension. Yet, not beyond our ability to define it and demand others to agree with the definition of that which is not comprehendable. http://www.allaboutgod.com/trinity-doctrine.htm Trinity Doctrine - How Can We Comprehend It? The most difficult thing about the Trinity Doctrine is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely higher than we are, therefore we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God (Exodus 3:14), that Jesus is God (John 8:58), and that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). The Bible also teaches that there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; James 2:19). How these two statements of doctrine can both be true is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this doesn't mean that they're both not true. So, if you can't comprehend it, you can't understand it, and you can't explain it, why in the world would you believe that you can define it? And why should anyone trust your definition ? Actually you just did, from scripture. The word Trinity just puts a name to what the Bible teaches. It is not I that is defining it, but scripture. So by all means do not trust my definition, trust the definition given by scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherTraveler Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,595 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2007 I do trust what the scripture says. It does not say trinity, it does not say coequal (or coanything). It does not say 3 persons. In fact, there is little in the trinity doctrine that is said in the bible. The Apostle Paul said great is the mystery of Godliness. I happen to trust the scripture, not those that come along to add things that the scripture does not say. Actually you just did, from scripture. The word Trinity just puts a name to what the Bible teaches. It is not I that is defining it, but scripture. So by all means do not trust my definition, trust the definition given by scripture. You declare that I am establishing your position as I refute it, that is really intellectual fraud. I know you can't actually support your position, but why don't you just admit it? Or disprove what I have said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreciousRubi Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 103 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 21, 2007 The Father is who Jesus was b4 he set aside his deity to become a man. The problem with "who Jesus was" requires that God change. This violates mainstream Christian orthodox theology that God is immutable - He cannot change... You make a good point Shlomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted November 21, 2007 O.K. Onwings, It is evident that you are pretty locked in to your view. The scriptures you have given in the previous post to me declare clearly the Father and the Son. I could give you many more that declare seperately the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I know you've seen them and have found a way to interpret them differently. By the way, I'm sure someone has brought this scriptue up already: Acts 5:3,4, which declares the Holy Spirit as God. But my question to you here is, in Gen 1:26, how do you interpret the pronouns US and OUR when God is refering to Himself? Greg. Saying the Holy Spirit is God,doesn't change any thing.I have never denied that the Holy Spirit is God,The Holy Spirit is no less God than you spirit is you. Genesis 1:26 any time people create a complete doctrine around one solitary verse you know it must be flawed. This is just what I was talking about, you give an answer but you didn't answer his question. Just like you give me a response but it doesn't really address the scripture given. You just ignore it and re state your doctrine, just like you did above. I will get to your list later, but it looks like much doublespeak. I know I get caught up in the bickering some times. But you all are taking the cake. If you don,t stop on the personal stuff the mods will shut this topic down. I like to bicker myself but to go on and on gets nobody going anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I do trust what the scripture says. It does not say trinity, it does not say coequal (or coanything). It does not say 3 persons. In fact, there is little in the trinity doctrine that is said in the bible. The Apostle Paul said great is the mystery of Godliness. I happen to trust the scripture, not those that come along to add things that the scripture does not say. Actually you just did, from scripture. The word Trinity just puts a name to what the Bible teaches. It is not I that is defining it, but scripture. So by all means do not trust my definition, trust the definition given by scripture. You declare that I am establishing your position as I refute it, that is really intellectual fraud. I know you can't actually support your position, but why don't you just admit it? Or disprove what I have said. I believe the kettle just called the pot black. I have given you many many scriptures that support my position. I have also given you historical teachings from as far back at the Apostle Johns time that supports my position. You on the other hand have grabbed a few verses while ignoring others to support yours. Your picture is incomplete. But as the above poster said this is getting us no where. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I believe he was talking about God' changing His divinity to become a man. The incarnation itself does not require change. However, once you claim that God dispensed of His divinity to become incarnate then change is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted November 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted November 21, 2007 I believe he was talking about God' changing His divinity to become a man. The incarnation itself does not require change. However, once you claim that God dispensed of His divinity to become incarnate then change is required. I have never claim any such thing you believe Jesus was a man and so do I. I also believe him to be fully God,That is where we differ,You believe him to be 1/3 God or a lesser God or another God separate from the only true God ''The Father''.But I believe he IS GOD. Well that's simply not true. I believe Jesus to be the complete God - the fullness of the Godhead - which is Triune. According to your statement above I would have to believe that God stopped being God while He was incarnated as a man: The Father is who Jesus was b4 he set aside his deity to become a man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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