UPDATE: US Intelligence Official:People Must Redefine Privacy

[faith pleases God]

It doesn't matter anymore....fascism is on the way.

Yod, what on earth does Clinton have to do with the trashing of the Constitution being attempted now, in 2007? Try to get out of that box and realize that the world has moved on from Bill Clinton's affairs....who cares? The subject is government spying on citizens and the current administration is behind it. Trying to blame this on Democrats is ludicrous. Both parties are to blame for even considering these stupid ideas. Get a clue.

The question shouldn't be who do we vote for that won't abuse the system. But who will make the system smaller? The gov't has too much power and control. Especially if they exercised it. If there is a threat to the safety of the american people the president can implement martial law for 6 months before congress can vote on it. And the law is written that simple. This is by far too much power for the WRONG????????? person. The gov't can do search and seizures without a court order (this is a direct violation of the 4th amendment). Laws are currently being written and passing that are in direct violation of the Constitution. The system is out of control and too big. The constitution wasn't written to limit the power of the people. It was written to limit the power of the government!

[buckthesystem]

You are absolutely right that we cannot afford to not take this seriously. Politically correct speech/the redefining of words as a tool of oppression is as old as WWI and is a truly marxist philosophy, it has been responsible for countless deaths throughout history, and aided propaganda - which convinces people that "they have nothing to worry about" and so will willingly give up previously cherished freedoms and rights because they "trust" the powers that be to give them "safety" in exchange for these.

People have been duped into believing that "those in power know better than them" for centuries, and into not caring about their descendents because "I can't see anything bad happening now, and don't care what happens in the future because I won't be around then". We fail to see that we are holding liberty in trust for our children and grandchildren, and we throw it away, not thinking about them.

I often imagine a scenario of, say, in 2030 and a grandchild saying to a champion of "give up liberty for safety": "Grandad/Grandma (as the case may be) where were you when the PATRIOT Act was passed, and why did you agree with it?"

People don't learn from history, they never have, and unfortunately I don't think they ever will.

A lot of people here believe that the antichrist is coming relatively soon. Well, his job will be made so easy by the attitudes of mankind who will "hand him the world on a plate".

LOL...what a ridiculously absurd post. Grandpa where were you??...lol.

Anyway...its not so much that I believe the gov't is all knowing, or even that I "trust" them for safety. However, I do trust God WHO IS all knowing. Who IS in charge. Who CAN be trusted to provide my safety.

Its also silly to believe that the anti-christ's "job" will be made any easier based on the attitudes of man...or that mankind can "hand him the world on a plate." It is this type of secular humanism that permiates the liberal ideology. God is in control. Not you, not me, or the gov't.

God didn't write the PATRIOT Act!!!!

Nor the UK Civil Contingencies Act!!!!!

This attitude reminds me of the old story of the man whose town is flooded out and he is standing on the roof of his house with flood waters lapping round his ankles as the waters rise. A helicopter hovers overhead and a voice from a loudspeaker in the helicopter says "we will send down a winch for you, when it is within reach just climb on" the man shouts back "no thanks, God will save me". Next a boat comes near and a man in the boat says "I'm picking up survivors, just get in the boat" and the first man shouts back "no thanks, I'm waiting for God to save me".

Time passes and now the water is nearly over the mans head and he cannot swim but rejects two more rescue attempts from boats saying "I'm waiting for God to help, he is in control". Soon the man drowns and goes to heaven and immediately looks at God accusingly and says "hey, why didn't you save me from that flood". God says "well I sent three boats and helicopter, how much more did you want?"

A quote from you: "its not so much that I believe the gov't is all knowing, or even that I "trust" them for safety." Yeah, sure it's not, sure it's not.....

[Guest yod]

It doesn't matter anymore....fascism is on the way.

Yod, what on earth does Clinton have to do with the trashing of the Constitution being attempted now, in 2007? Try to get out of that box and realize that the world has moved on from Bill Clinton's affairs....who cares? The subject is government spying on citizens and the current administration is behind it. Trying to blame this on Democrats is ludicrous. Both parties are to blame for even considering these stupid ideas. Get a clue.

The point seems so obvious I don't understand why you don't understand it...unless you're a Democrat that is still blind to the fascist leanings of your party.

Bush installed the laws that the next administration will abuse. He could not have done it without help from the Democrat congress. I don't believe you can point to his administration abusing that power against ordinary citizens, though there probably have been some isolated cases we don't know about.

However, I believe that the next Democrat President will continue the abuse of power for political reasons as they have done since the days of FDR. I mention Clinton because the real power-behind-the-throne in his administration (Hillary) is also the frontrunner in the next Presidential election.

I don't doubt there has been collusion between the Bush & Clinton administration since the late 80s. How did an unknown Governor from one of the least influential states become the President? Through having an unlimited supply of Chinese money.

Who opened that gate with China? Bush 41

That isn't a conspiracy theory...just an observation and possible scenario. We simply don't know what goes on at that level of governance.

[MorningGlory]

It doesn't matter anymore....fascism is on the way.

Yod, what on earth does Clinton have to do with the trashing of the Constitution being attempted now, in 2007? Try to get out of that box and realize that the world has moved on from Bill Clinton's affairs....who cares? The subject is government spying on citizens and the current administration is behind it. Trying to blame this on Democrats is ludicrous. Both parties are to blame for even considering these stupid ideas. Get a clue.

The point seems so obvious I don't understand why you don't understand it...unless you're a Democrat that is still blind to the fascist leanings of your party.

Bush installed the laws that the next administration will abuse. He could not have done it without help from the Democrat congress. I don't believe you can point to his administration abusing that power against ordinary citizens, though there probably have been some isolated cases we don't know about.

However, I believe that the next Democrat President will continue the abuse of power for political reasons as they have done since the days of FDR. I mention Clinton because the real power-behind-the-throne in his administration (Hillary) is also the frontrunner in the next Presidential election.

I don't doubt there has been collusion between the Bush & Clinton administration since the late 80s. How did an unknown Governor from one of the least influential states become the President? Through having an unlimited supply of Chinese money.

Who opened that gate with China? Bush 41

That isn't a conspiracy theory...just an observation and possible scenario. We simply don't know what goes on at that level of governance.

Well I'm not a Democrat so that's a moot point, yod. You did bring up Clinton's affairs, a subject which is irrelevant to the privacy issue. I totally understand what you're saying but you seem not to understand your own bias. GWB has attempted more hijacking of the Constitution than any president I remember or have even read about; and yes, I voted for him, regretfully. I can't see that Bush 41 opened Chinese floodgates to ensure Clinton's victory in 1992. That doesn't make sense. Your blind support of one party makes you vulnerable to the globalist agenda. One that does not have the best interests of the American people in mind but, rather, is beholden to Big Oil and various and sundry other Big Business interests. We all need to wake up and really look at the people we elect rather than just voting for the party. Unless we want another 'compassionate conservative' who is anything but.

[Guest yod]

Well I'm not a Democrat so that's a moot point, yod. You did bring up Clinton's affairs, a subject which is irrelevant to the privacy issue. I totally understand what you're saying but you seem not to understand your own bias. GWB has attempted more hijacking of the Constitution than any president I remember or have even read about; and yes, I voted for him, regretfully. I can't see that Bush 41 opened Chinese floodgates to ensure Clinton's victory in 1992. That doesn't make sense. Your blind support of one party makes you vulnerable to the globalist agenda.

I was a Democrat who became a Republican so I've been both....but for many years now I have been neither. We are speeding into a brick wall at 75 mph with the GOP or going 150 mph with the Dems. Either way same end result but one of them is going much faster so we have less time to make any changes.

The point of Clinton's affairs is to point out the hypocrisy of the Bush haters who don't have a problem with their own party. The remarks regarding China are not provable fact and I don't claim that things happened that way...but it does seem rather interesting if you know history.

Maybe I shouldn't assume that you do?

America had no trade relations with China at all until Nixon went...then Bush 41 followed up on it with a visit also. Who benefitted from this trade? We did (I suppose) by having cheaper products in the stores...but Clinton, an unknown in national politics was catapulted to the highest office in the land by Chinese money. He made it possible for them to buy American military and aerospace secrets and was rewarded handsomely.

Many other politicians have dirty hands with regards to China but none parlayed it into the Presidency. I could not prove that there is any connection with China/Bush/Clinton (and don't want to appear stating it as fact either) but it does look a bit suspicious that we haven't had a President that was neither a Clinton or a Bush since 1990...and now Hillary is the frontrunner?

So now I'm going back to the OP.

Since Al Gore invented the internet we are all being monitored far into the future whether we like it or not...whether we change laws or not....whether we limit what the current government can do with it or not.

that is the digital reality we live in now

.

[MorningGlory]

Well I'm not a Democrat so that's a moot point, yod. You did bring up Clinton's affairs, a subject which is irrelevant to the privacy issue. I totally understand what you're saying but you seem not to understand your own bias. GWB has attempted more hijacking of the Constitution than any president I remember or have even read about; and yes, I voted for him, regretfully. I can't see that Bush 41 opened Chinese floodgates to ensure Clinton's victory in 1992. That doesn't make sense. Your blind support of one party makes you vulnerable to the globalist agenda.

I was a Democrat who became a Republican so I've been both....but for many years now I have been neither. We are speeding into a brick wall at 75 mph with the GOP or going 150 mph with the Dems. Either way same end result but one of them is going much faster so we have less time to make any changes.

The point of Clinton's affairs is to point out the hypocrisy of the Bush haters who don't have a problem with their own party. The remarks regarding China are not provable fact and I don't claim that things happened that way...but it does seem rather interesting if you know history.

Maybe I shouldn't assume that you do?

America had no trade relations with China at all until Nixon went...then Bush 41 followed up on it with a visit also. Who benefitted from this trade? We did (I suppose) by having cheaper products in the stores...but Clinton, an unknown in national politics was catapulted to the highest office in the land by Chinese money. He made it possible for them to buy American military and aerospace secrets and was rewarded handsomely.

Many other politicians have dirty hands with regards to China but none parlayed it into the Presidency. I could not prove that there is any connection with China/Bush/Clinton (and don't want to appear stating it as fact either) but it does look a bit suspicious that we haven't had a President that was neither a Clinton or a Bush since 1990...and now Hillary is the frontrunner?

So now I'm going back to the OP.

Since Al Gore invented the internet we are all being monitored far into the future whether we like it or not...whether we change laws or not....whether we limit what the current government can do with it or not.

that is the digital reality we live in now

.

Well, yod, your inference that I don't know history aside, that isn't exactly ancient history and I do remember the first Bush administration; can't say I was impressed by him but I don't believe he was in bed with the Chinese or that he deliberately lost the election. Why would he do that? Wasn't there like twenty years between Nixon and Bush 41? Clinton was elected, not by Chinese money (you know the GOP would've proved that if it was so) but by the crummy economy back then, not Bush Sr.s fault really but...you know Presidents always get blamed for bad economies. Remember, that the current President was the governor of a southern state also when he ran for the White House; he had no other experience either and was relatively unknown outside of Texas. I assume you also know the President can't sell national assets to a foreign government, especially military assets. That has to be approved by Congress. (Remember GWB's idea to allow the UAE to buy into American ports? He didn't have the authority to pull that one off either.) I also don't understand what you mean by we're being monitored far into the future, getting back to the topic of privacy. Care to clarify???

[buckthesystem]

Since Al Gore invented the internet we are all being monitored far into the future whether we like it or not...whether we change laws or not....whether we limit what the current government can do with it or not.

that is the digital reality we live in now

.

To say "that is the digital reality we live in now" is not good enough, and implies resignation and acceptance.

This is not acceptable in any shape, size or form! We can get rid of this evil and we must. I can see absolutely no benefits to anyone in monitoring the movements or "identity" of Americans at all, so we have to get rid of the idea that it is "inevitable" once and for all.

When the SSN was first foisted on the American public in (I think) about 1936 on the card people received with the number on it was written (something like) "not to be used for identification purposes", but now "things have changed" and why? Because you were duped in believing that it was "necessary".

The civil liberties website says:

"If you're like most people, you've probably given out your Social Security number several times in the past few weeks. Chances are you didn't even know you had a choice in the matter. And anyway, it's such a convenient form of identification, you probably didn't think twice about it.

But you should.

By revealing our SSNs to so many entities -- governmental and private organizations alike -- we're sacrificing our right to privacy and anonymity. And in an information society, these are increasingly rare commodities.

SSNs were originally created to number personal accounts for Social Security, tax collection and benefits payment. But today, SSNs have become a too-common identifier.

An ever-growing number of computer networks let organizations sell, store, transfer and link our personal and business information -- usually without our knowledge or consent. It's become way too easy for government agencies and private organizations to trace each of us, from cradle to grave.

The details of our personal lives belong to us -- they're no one else's business".

There is NO reason at all, anytime, why Americans shouldn't have basic privacy and continue to enjoy the freedom that you've always held. To be convinced to believe otherwise is defeatist to say the least.

George Orwell said in the book "1984" (about the "redefining of words"):

"It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought ... should be literally unthinkable, at least so far as thought is dependent on words."

This is exactly what the "redefining" of the word "privacy" is intending to do.

[Guest yod]

Well, yod, your inference that I don't know history aside,

I didn't say that? I just said that I shouldn't assume that you (or anyone else in the thread) does. And you assumed that I'm a die hard Republican loyalist.

I just see them as the lesser of evil right now. That could change....

that isn't exactly ancient history and I do remember the first Bush administration; can't say I was impressed by him but I don't believe he was in bed with the Chinese or that he deliberately lost the election. Why would he do that?

I believe there are "people" who are above the system and they work both parties. The Chinese connection probably wouldn't have come from someone in Arkansas making a phone call. There would have to be someone behind the scenes making arrangements.

I'm not saying that there was....it just makes the most logical sense as a scenario.

Wasn't there like twenty years between Nixon and Bush 41? Clinton was elected, not by Chinese money (you know the GOP would've proved that if it was so) but by the crummy economy back then, not Bush Sr.s fault really but...you know Presidents always get blamed for bad economies.

plenty of Republicans were taking Chinese money too....

Remember, that the current President was the governor of a southern state also when he ran for the White House; he had no other experience either and was relatively unknown outside of Texas.

oh please...you are not going to try and compare Texas as an equal to Arkansas are you? We've got one of the largest economies in the world.

Arkansas? they have Tyson chicken, Wal Mart, and hillbillies.

I assume you also know the President can't sell national assets to a foreign government, especially military assets. That has to be approved by Congress.

Laws don't stop democrats!? Are you kidding me?

(Remember GWB's idea to allow the UAE to buy into American ports? He didn't have the authority to pull that one off either.)

Don't look now but the ports are already owned by foreigners.

I also don't understand what you mean by we're being monitored far into the future, getting back to the topic of privacy. Care to clarify???

Everything you do in this digital age can be traced; right now or at any time in the future. An administration who comes to power in the next year or even in 2020 could have every financial transaction, every phone call, every email or other electronic communication, and all your medical records by pushing a button on a supercomputer. Do you have a cell phone? That makes it possible for your every move to be traced like a GPS. It has ALREADY happened and there's nothing you can do about it. Maybe we could raise cain about how those records are kept at this time...but eventually all records will be deemed "necessary" for security reasons.

I'm not saying it's a good thing or that I'm taking a defeatist attitude. I'm saying it is already here and has been for a while now....it will become dangerously close to fascism as our leaders become less and less moral.

There are certain steps along the way to fascism and most of them have now been completed in America. It's only a matter of time now before "someone" abuses the system against ordinary citizens to ensure their political survival. The Clinton Administration showed that they are not afraid to abuse authority against common citizens and we have another Clinton coming back soon. Bush is clearing the legal obstacles for a full-blown socialist/fascist take-over but he hasn't abused that power against ordinary citizens. I'm not as confident about the next Democrat President though...

that is just reality.

where has everyone been? That genie ain't going back in the bottle.

[MorningGlory]

oh please...you are not going to try and compare Texas as an equal to Arkansas are you? We've got one of the largest economies in the world.

Arkansas? they have Tyson chicken, Wal Mart, and hillbillies.

I didn't realize you were also a Texan, yod. True, our economy is bigger than most countries but.....that doesn't make us any more important than Arkansas. And I would definitely hesitate to refer to Arkansians as 'hillbillies'.

Don't look now but the ports are already owned by foreigners.

To an extent, yes, but they weren't sold by the President; he doesn't own them. They are privately held and they weren't sold to islamic countries. Actually, I think it's only the port security that is operated by foreign countries (mainly Britain). My point was that Clinton couldn't sell military anything to China. Presidents simply don't have that kind of power. Intimating that he gave military secrets to China is only speculation. Do you seriously believe that the GOP would give him a pass if this was known? They did everything to try to destroy the Clintons; they would have had him under the jail.

I may agree, up to a point, that our government probably knows more about us than we like to think. I don't think they need any more power to monitor citizens. What I want to see our keystone government monitor are illegals and terrorists coming across the borders. If they know what your doctor prescribed for you last week then it's reasonable for us to expect them to know what Ahmed the Terrorist is up to in Hoboken!

[Axxman]

God didn't write the PATRIOT Act!!!!

Nor the UK Civil Contingencies Act!!!!!

Can you prove that? Or is this just something that you made up? Is it so hard to believe that God is in control of EVERYTHING?

Quit being so scared. The sky is not falling, but rest assured chicken little, that when the sky does fall...It will be by God's design.