Absent from the body...

[Christian]

patricia1 and givennewname I would like to thank you both for your recent posts but would like to redirect this thread back to it's original path. The discussion of near death experiences and "clinical death" resuscitation is a topic for another thread, and it doesn't fall into what we are trying to determine here. I am not discounting these experiences, but of course they are subjective and "unprovable" by Scripture or any other "documented", CONCRETE evidence. (No one has ever taken a video camera into the afterlife and brought back a tape with them right?).

I do side with God, and Christians on this matter though, and will not accept medical/scientific data "proving" that all claims to an afterlife are can be "explained", thereby negating all possibility of it being a reality.

No offense patricia1, but you hear the same kind of passionate conviction among those who claim to have been abducted by extraterrestrials, should I believe them because I have no reason not to? It's like hearing that someone saw God on a really intense acid trip, was it the drug, or did he really see God?

What we are trying to piece together is Scriptural verses that CLEARLY, and UNQUESTIONABLY (without personal "interpretation"), state that when one dies they go IMMEDIATELY to heaven.

All Scriptural verse examples given so far in this thread are interpretive at best, and supportive of theologies of choice. Those who subscribe to the "heaven club" have no problem twisting any number of scriptures to fit this viewpoint, but these same scriptures can be interpreted differently. So I am talking about quoting Scriptures that ANYONE could look at at know EXACTLY what was being said.

These types of scriptures abound in the Bible, stating clearly what needed to be understood. Verses like,

Matthew 22:37-40

(37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(38) This is the first and great commandment.

(39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

are concise, clear, and cannot be interpreted differently (correctly at least).

So these were the type of Scriptures that I was seeking in regards to "Dying and going immediately to heaven".

My curveball to throw at this conversation is this. Jesus Himself said...

John 5:28-29

(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How can they be in the graves and hear His voice if they are already with Him?

(I am not a pre-trib rapture supporter, so please don't explain it away with this fallacy)

Blessings,

His faithful servant,

Christian

[givennewname]

Hi Christian,

Greetings in the name of the Lord.

What we are trying to piece together is Scriptural verses that CLEARLY, and UNQUESTIONABLY (without personal "interpretation"), state that when one dies they go IMMEDIATELY to heaven.

All Scriptural verse examples given so far in this thread are interpretive at best, and supportive of theologies of choice. Those who subscribe to the "heaven club" have no problem twisting any number of scriptures to fit this viewpoint, but these same scriptures can be interpreted differently. So I am talking about quoting Scriptures that ANYONE could look at at know EXACTLY what was being said.

Hey I agree with you 100%. I am looking for answers myself so why don't we look together?? I am recently come back to the Lord 7 years ago and started reading the Bible in ernest.

The general flavour of the Bible suggest the righteous (as in those that are looking for the arrival of the Messiah in faith) are at least in the presence of the God and in a place of bliss. Whether this is heaven, the Bible does not specifiaclly mentions it as in the account of Lazarus and the begger.

Luk 16:19 Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day:

Luk 16:20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table; yea, even the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.

Luk 16:23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish.

Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.

Luk 16:27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house;

Luk 16:28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luk 16:29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.

From the account above we can at least conclude that the following is true:

[*]This is not a parable but a true story. Abraham and Lazarus have names. Parables are stories and individuals are not named. As Abraham is named, it gives us confidence that the acount is a true story as opposed to a parable.

[*]The timing of the account is prior to the resurrection, as the accounts says the the Lazarus household knows only the Laws of Moses and the prophets and not the saving grace of Jesus. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.

[*]The individuals are conscious of their states-they are talking and comprehending and Lazarus is in a state of torment while Abraham & the begger is in a state of Bliss. Whether this is heaven is not stated conclusively! However, there is a seperation between Lazarus and the place of bliss mentioned. Luk 16:23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame. We see from this account that Lazarus and the beggar died and went to Hades, the place of the Death in Greek. G8 6ᾅδης hadēshah'-dace From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is,

[givennewname]

Dear Brother Christian,

Sorry to have delayed in the reply, but you have mistakenly attributed the post to Bro. Massorite.

There are three destinations for those who die in Christ before the day of Christ. They are Paradise first, heaven second, and back to the new earth last. So you are saying...

1) Death in Christ... go to Paradise (earthly grave, soul awaits Christ in non-"heaven" place)

2) Soul goes to heaven with Christ at the first resurrection

3) Soul returns with Christ for 1000 year reign.

If this is not the sequence you described can you please be more specific about your 1,2,3? listed above in your post

Yes that is the sequence for those who die in faith of the messiah before the death of Christ.

The reason why I believe so is, firstly, the thief who accepts Jesus on the cross was promised to be in paradise the same day that Jesus died.

Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Luk 23:42 And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom.

Luk 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

We know Jesus died before sundown day prior to Sabbath and did not ascend to heaven until he was resurrected. Yet Jesus told the thieve he would meet him in Paradise that same day, that he died, so the thief could not have met Jesus in Heaven. Jesus says he will meet him again-meaning there is a conscious recognition and not some type of soul sleep-in paradise, which is a garden, not heaven. This paradise is also described as part of Jesus's kingdom, as the thieve had recognised Jesus as the Messiah, therefore, it is a place where the righteous in Christ goes.

Where did Jesus goes in the three days that he descended to Hades?

1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

1Pe 3:19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,

So from the two verses, it could be that Paradise is the part of Hades where the righteous goes awaiting the advent of Christ.

I also believe that Paradise is now not inhabited, after Jesus had taken the souls there to heaven based on this passage:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Joh 14:4 And whither I go, ye know the way.

Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way?

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I believe that Jesus is right now in heaven and not Paradise, And he promises that whoever believes in him, will be reunited with him

New creature

I have alluded previously that after the advent of Jesus, The Lord promises to prepare a mansion to take us back to him when he is back. In the context of this chapter, this is just prior to his death and crucifixion, so I believe that when he is back refers to the time after his resurrection and not to his second coming. Since the Lord Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God,

Luk 22:67 If thou art the Christ, tell us. But he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

Luk 22:68 and if I ask you, ye will not answer.

Luk 22:69 But from henceforth shall the Son of man be seated at the right hand of the power of God. Luk 22:70 And they all said, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

and he promise the disciples that he will bring us to be with him, the conclusion is that we will be in heaven with Christ when believers die.

New creature

Edited December 13, 2007 by givennewname

[Christian]

Hello Brother givennewname,

Thank you for your response, I'd love to continue this study with you further. Thank you also for the Scriptures you provided in making your points, that is the purpose of the thread.

The general flavour of the Bible suggest the righteous (as in those that are looking for the arrival of the Messiah in faith) are at least in the presence of the God and in a place of bliss. Whether this is heaven, the Bible does not specifiaclly mentions it as in the account of Lazarus and the begger.

I too agree that after death no matter where we are, if we are in Christ, our souls are safe, and God our Father has account of us. Given the lack of specifics given to us as to exactly where this is, not somewhere that is "implied" within different verses, one can ponder if this is one of those mysteries that the Lord felt needed no "solving" by us. All that was needed for us to know was that our eternal life was guaranteed through Christ, and the rest was not for us to concern ourselves with. Most of statements made by the Christ and the apostles regarding the phenomenon were countering and trying to correct pagan beliefs and practices, and incorrect "religious" views of the time that disputed death, bodily resurrection, and the plight of souls.

Luk 16:29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.

[*]This is not a parable but a true story. Abraham and Lazarus have names. Parables are stories and individuals are not named. As Abraham is named, it gives us confidence that the acount is a true story as opposed to a parable.

[*]The timing of the account is prior to the resurrection, as the accounts says the the Lazarus household knows only the Laws of Moses and the prophets and not the saving grace of Jesus. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.

Agreed

[*]The individuals are conscious of their states-they are talking and comprehending and Lazarus is in a state of torment while Abraham & the begger is in a state of Bliss. Whether this is heaven is not stated conclusively! However, there is a seperation between Lazarus and the place of bliss mentioned.

Only Abraham and the rich man are "concious" in this dialog, as brother Massorite has already abundantly made clear in his posts. Lazarus does not speak here, not even "implied" conversation, and this "state of Bliss" you speak of is not "scripturally" mentioned.

[*]The individuals are conscious of their states-they are talking and comprehending and Lazarus is in a state of torment while Abraham & the begger is in a state of Bliss.. Therefore, they are not in a grave in soul sleep as claimed by certain expert.

Again, with Lazarus not "speaking" at all here I don't believe your statement can be conclusive either way.

The soul goes to Hades or Heaven after the advent of Jesus.

We have no idea exactly what Jesus said to "the spirits in prison" spoken of in 1Peter 3:19, we can only surmise that it was the same message He communicated in John 14:6. Thus giving those who died before His first advent the opportunity to know that He was the Messiah, and the question of their allegiance to Him that will be asked of them in the final Judgement. Christ being the "first fruits" of the resurrection is a model of what is to happen, not a starting point for it to happen immediately from then on. It is speculation on verses that leads some to believe that Christ emptied Paradise/Hades and brought everyone to heaven.

Peace to you my brother in Christ,

His faithful servant,

Christian

[givennewname]

Hi Brother Christian,

Greetings in the name of the Lord,

Thank you for your response, I'd love to continue this study with you further. Thank you also for the Scriptures you provided in making your points, that is the purpose of the thread.

I would love to do that with you, Brother Christian in a mutually edifying and scholarly way. I must apologise about getting deviated discussing near death experience. I have a special interest in this near death experience and death in general as I am a Physician, an obstetrician to be exact. I see life starting, I see a lot of my colleagues terminating life in abortions, and I suspect that my life will end not too soon unless the Lord comes in the rapture in the near future as I am stricken with a deadly neurological illness called MS.

I too agree that after death no matter where we are, if we are in Christ, our souls are safe, and God our Father has account of us.

Amen!

The general flavour of the Bible suggest the righteous (as in those that are looking for the arrival of the Messiah in faith) are at least in the presence of the God and in a place of bliss. Whether this is heaven, the Bible does not specifically mentions it as in the account of Lazarus and the rich man

The Bible is not vague on the subject. Let us go back to the account of Lazarus, Father Abraham and the rich man.

This is not a parable but a true story. Abraham and Lazarus have names. Parables are stories and individuals are not named. As Abraham is named, it gives us confidence that the account is a true story as opposed to a parable.

The timing of the account is prior to the resurrection, as the accounts says the the Lazarus household knows only the Laws of Moses and the prophets and not the saving grace of Jesus. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead. Agreed

Well I am glad we can agree that this is a true account and not a parable. Parables do not usually name a character specifically as in this case, we know that Abraham, Lazarus and a rich man (not named) is involved. I suspect that the rich man is not named as they have very strict privacy laws in Hades & I would be given a new name just like me as promised in Revelations.

Only Abraham and the rich man are "conscious" in this dialog, as brother Massorite has already abundantly made clear in his posts. Lazarus does not speak here, not even "implied" conversation, and this "state of Bliss" you speak of is not "scriptural" mentioned.

Well, the previous posts were not by Brother Massorite, the posts were written by me but attributed to Bro. Massorite. Anyhow, you are correct the only Abraham and Lazarus was talking, but it did not mean that the Lazarus was not conscious, just because he is not talking. I always tell my wife talking is often over rated. If you are like me and typically of all man, we can go on 1 whole week quite contented not to utter a single word. I suspect Lazarus was such a man!

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish

We see in verse 24 it says that Lazarus is "comforted" while the rich man is in anguish.

We see in verse 24: the rich man ask Father Abraham to allow the Lazarus to dip a finger in water to cool his tongue-spirits or persons in soul sleep don't do that. Neither do illusions. To request Lazarus to perform such a task, there are certain provisions to fulfill

1. one have to be real & seen
   
2. one have to be conscious, ie I do not ask comatose men & person in soul sleep to perform task like dipping fingers
   
3. Lazarus has a physical finger to dip in water & at least be conscious to do such a task perform such a task.
   

Again the scriptures say that Lazarus is comforted-

Just as the rich man is feeling real anguish in the flames of torment, which means that he is not asleep or in soul sleep where he cannot experience pain, similarly Lazarus is comforted, therefore he has to experience sensation to be comforted.

I often tell my students that the fact that I experience pain means I'm still ""alive"". I know as MS is an excruciating painful condition due to muscular spasms.

The soul goes to Hades or Heaven after the advent of Jesus. We have no idea exactly what Jesus said to "the spirits in prison" spoken of in 1Peter 3:19, we can only surmise that it was the same message He communicated

Again, it is not important what that message was. The point I was making, is that Jesus spoke and preached. Someone heard in Hades.

One cannot talk or preach in soul sleep, likewise, if one is not conscious in the afterlife- & souls in soul sleep cannot hear. If souls that are dead are asleep, then persons in soul sleep can't hear or talk. If one can't hear, there is no point of Jesus going to Hades to preach a message because persons in Hades cannot respond if they are in the grave.

Your humble servant in Christ,

New creature who will be given a new name.

Edited December 14, 2007 by givennewname

[givennewname]

Hey Brother Christian, it is so pleasant that we can talk in a polite fashion and learn from each other.

God bless.

New creature, without MS in the future.

[givennewname]

Dear Brother Christian,

We see in verse 24: the rich man ask Father Abraham to allow the Lazarus to dip a finger in water to cool his tongue-spirits or persons in soul sleep don't do that. Neither do illusions. To request Lazarus to perform such a task, there are certain provisions to fulfill

1. one have to be real & seen
   
2. one have to be conscious, ie I do not ask comatose men & person in soul sleep to perform task like dipping fingers
   
3. Lazarus has a physical finger to dip in water & at least be conscious to do such a task perform such a task.[/
   

The only physician I have seen so far who would carry a conversation for 15 minutes to a comatose patients is the cardiology professor who had died X 3. who came back again. He believes the comatose patients have their spirits floating around in ICU. He keeps a ""very straight matter of fact"" rendition of all the explainations of disease process, treatment options, to comatose patients on ventilators who had large myocardial infarctions (heart attacks), and then ask their relatives to sign on the dotted line...

New creature.

Edited December 14, 2007 by givennewname

[Massorite]

patricia1 and givennewname I would like to thank you both for your recent posts but would like to redirect this thread back to it's original path. The discussion of near death experiences and "clinical death" resuscitation is a topic for another thread, and it doesn't fall into what we are trying to determine here. I am not discounting these experiences, but of course they are subjective and "unprovable" by Scripture or any other "documented", CONCRETE evidence. (No one has ever taken a video camera into the afterlife and brought back a tape with them right?).

I do side with God, and Christians on this matter though, and will not accept medical/scientific data "proving" that all claims to an afterlife are can be "explained", thereby negating all possibility of it being a reality.

No offense patricia1, but you hear the same kind of passionate conviction among those who claim to have been abducted by extraterrestrials, should I believe them because I have no reason not to? It's like hearing that someone saw God on a really intense acid trip, was it the drug, or did he really see God?

What we are trying to piece together is Scriptural verses that CLEARLY, and UNQUESTIONABLY (without personal "interpretation"), state that when one dies they go IMMEDIATELY to heaven.

All Scriptural verse examples given so far in this thread are interpretive at best, and supportive of theologies of choice. Those who subscribe to the "heaven club" have no problem twisting any number of scriptures to fit this viewpoint, but these same scriptures can be interpreted differently. So I am talking about quoting Scriptures that ANYONE could look at at know EXACTLY what was being said.

These types of scriptures abound in the Bible, stating clearly what needed to be understood. Verses like,

Matthew 22:37-40

(37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(38) This is the first and great commandment.

(39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

are concise, clear, and cannot be interpreted differently (correctly at least).

So these were the type of Scriptures that I was seeking in regards to "Dying and going immediately to heaven".

My curveball to throw at this conversation is this. Jesus Himself said...

John 5:28-29

(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How can they be in the graves and hear His voice if they are already with Him?

(I am not a pre-trib rapture supporter, so please don't explain it away with this fallacy)

Blessings,

His faithful servant,

Christian

Hello my Brother

The plain truth of the matter is that there is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it clearly states " When we die we will go to heaven". So to say that we do go to heaven when we die is to state that which is not written in the bible. Because if we did go to heaven when we die the word of God would clearly tell us we do and there would be no bout adout it. A little humor there.

[OneLight]

The plain truth of the matter is that there is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it clearly states " When we die we will go to heaven".

Can you explain what these verses mean to you, especially what is in bold?

2 Corinthians 5:1-8

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, is he not?

God Bless,

OneLight

Replaced God with the Father

[Christian]

Hello my Brother

The plain truth of the matter is that there is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it clearly states " When we die we will go to heaven". So to say that we do go to heaven when we die is to state that which is not written in the bible. Because if we did go to heaven when we die the word of God would clearly tell us we do and there would be no bout adout it. A little humor there.

Good to have you back my dear Brother