Absent from the body...

[Christian]

Hey Brother Christian, it is so pleasant that we can talk in a polite fashion and learn from each other.

God bless.

New creature, without MS in the future.

I agree with you wholeheartedly my brother in Christ. I enjoy sincere edification and learning with fellow Christians, but I despise fruitless debate and argument. That's why I insist on keeping Scripture verses present in topic discussions. It doesn't allow any room for "interpretive" ego and pride to run away with our emotions, or the threads.

Brother Massorite is a dear friend and sometimes study partner of mine because I respect his strict adherence to the Bible, and the in depth effort he puts into literal translation, not interpretive. (I keep mixing your statement about Lazarus up with him because he was the first one to ever present that fact to me.)

Blessings to you NC,

His faithful servant,

Christian

[givennewname]

Hey Brother Christian, it is so pleasant that we can talk in a polite fashion and learn from each other.

God bless.

New creature, without MS in the future.

I agree with you wholeheartedly my brother in Christ. I enjoy sincere edification and learning with fellow Christians, but I despise fruitless debate and argument. That's why I insist on keeping Scripture verses present in topic discussions. It doesn't allow any room for "interpretive" ego and pride to run away with our emotions, or the threads.

Brother Massorite is a dear friend and sometimes study partner of mine because I respect his strict adherence to the Bible, and the in depth effort he puts into literal translation, not interpretive. (I keep mixing your statement about Lazarus up with him because he was the first one to ever present that fact to me.)

Blessings to you NC,

His faithful servant,

Christian

To be honest Brother Christian, I am so battle weary from the excesses of youth and the pain of growing older that the idea of soul sleep sounds very appealing to me. I had been so deprived of sleep, that one year ago, at 2 am in the morning being called out to do a delivery I told the Lord I had enough and wanted to go home.

I can certainly empathise with Paul would would like to go home, yet due to earthly commitments have to stay!

I have this neurological problem, that started off very mild but as days go by, the neurological symptoms gets worse, and I do worry about my family and young children.

Back to the study:

I think there is an element of both literal and interpretative elements in the Bible.

I remember Jesus debating with the sadducees about resurrection, and the sadducees who only hold to the first 5 books of the OT was adamant the Scriptures do not preach ressurection.

Mat 22:28 In the resurrection therefore whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

Mat 22:29 But Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as angels in heaven.

Mar 12:26 But as touching the dead, that they are raised; have ye not read in the book of Moses, in the place concerning the Bush, how God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living: ye do greatly err

By interpreting the word I am, Jesus shows that God is still presently, the God of Abraham, so Abraham must still be alive.

Now if Abraham is still alive, and living and kicking, while being in the grave, where is he alive??

Literal rendering of scriptures can still be interpretive just as Jesus has done. It is the allogorical rendering of all scriptures like that introduced by Augustine that does most damage.

God bless

New creature

[givennewname]

John 5:28-29

(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Dear brother Christian,

Here's the curveball thrown back to you. Do dead people in soul sleep hear voices??

I know that patients having a general anesthetic in deep deep sleep are not conscious, they can have all their organs taken out and no reaction recorded from them! If the person is still in the grave and nowhere else, conscious and alive, how do they hear voices??

Yet in this verse, the dead in graves, hear his voice!

It means they are conscious!

New creature

Edited December 16, 2007 by givennewname

[givennewname]

These types of scriptures abound in the Bible, stating clearly what needed to be understood. Verses like,

Matthew 22:37-40

(37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(38) This is the first and great commandment.

(39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

are concise, clear, and cannot be interpreted differently (correctly at least).

Dear Brother Christian,

I am in awe of someone who love God's law so much and know it as well as you do, however, even laws written in tablets of stones are subject to interpretation by men. Some like the pharisees interprete the law ritually without compassion or understanding:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone.

Any law written in tablets or on paper can be twisted to suit one's taste. What that often looks staright forward and in black and white often ends up gray. Look at what the lawyers do in America and elsewhere in the world to the constitution and the laws of a nation. Similarly God's law can be twisted. I have often done that myself, knowingly or unknowingly, when I feel like sining, there in always justification before the action, that doesn't seem so justified afterwards. Ever heard of the devil's advocate?? That's my mind, called by another name.

The Pharisees emphasise the jot and the tittle of the law, but the Lord often rebukes them for not following the spirit of the law.

That is why Jesus came to revamp the whole system, to put the Laws in men's heart so that they will follow the spirit of the law like God promised in the OT.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh;

Eze 11:20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

I cannot show you a scripture in the b=Bible that a man that dies in Christ goes to Heaven, but i know from the Bible that there is consciousness in death, and I die knowing that the Saviour Loves me and I go back to his presence straight away after death, whether it is called heaven, it doesnt really matter.

New creature.

Edited December 16, 2007 by givennewname

[Massorite]

The plain truth of the matter is that there is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it clearly states " When we die we will go to heaven".

Can you explain what these verses mean to you, especially what is in bold?

2 Corinthians 5:1-8

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, is he not?

God Bless,

OneLight

Replaced God with the Father

First of all you have made the same mistake that many have and always made about these verses.

Your highlited words say"We are confident,

[OneLight]

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, is he not?

God Bless,

OneLight

Replaced God with the Father

First of all you have made the same mistake that many have and always made about these verses.

Your highlited words say"We are confident,

That was no mistake. I am confident that when I die, I become absent from this body and present with the Lord. I am also confident that I am saved. Both take faith.

OneLight

[Massorite]

The plain truth of the matter is that there is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it clearly states " When we die we will go to heaven".

Can you explain what these verses mean to you, especially what is in bold?

2 Corinthians 5:1-8

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, is he not?

God Bless,

OneLight

Replaced God with the Father

First of all you have made the same mistake that many have and always have made about these verses.

Your highlighted words say"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". The mistake that is always made about this verse is that it is always read or interpreted " TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY IS TO BE IN THE PRESENTS OF THE LORD" but it is always over looked that verse says " WE ARE CONFIDENT, YES, WELL PLEASED TO BE RATHER".

You see that word "RATHER" is always over looked. Which means that the verses does not say " To be absent from the body is to be in the presents of the Lord" Instead the verse says that we would "RATHER" be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord".

These verses are talking about the flesh which is our house while we are in this world and verse six says just that "while we are at home in the body (of flesh) we are absent from the Lord"

So to say " To be absent from the body is to be absent from the Lord" is not written anywhere in the bible, is a misquote of what the word really says which leaves out one word which changes the whole of what the verse is actually saying which leads to and is part of a false doctrinal teaching. Which is "When we die we go to heaven" along with being part of the pre-trib concept as well.

Jesus is always our example and we should look at Him as such. So what did Jesus do when He died on that day? Paul says that He first "descended into the Lower reaches of the earth" before He rose from the grave.

Is there anywhere in the bible that says that what will happen to us will be different then what happened to our Saviour? No!

[OneLight]

Greetings Brother Massorite,

I took the time to consider your words and look up what the original meaning of these words are in Spiros Zodhiates Th.D. The Complete Word Study Dictionary, New Testament. During this study, I was directed to another passage where Paul and Timothy wrote to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi.

First, you mentioned the word confident. The dictionary describes this word as follows: To be of good cheer, have courage, be full of hope and confidence. In 2 Corinthians 1:1, we read: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia. This would point to the fact that this is how Paul and Timothy believed, and they were bringing the truth to those in Corinth.

Then we can look up the word "rather", which is stated to be used in a general use, meaning that they would rather be.

There is also the word "present", which is described as follows: One who is home, in his own country, or among his own people, an organized body of people, to be present in any place or with any person. This shows that it is, in fact, being with Christ.

So the passage does mean exactly what it says. Paul and Timothy are confident that being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Then, as stated, I was directed to Philippians 1:19-26. It reads as follows:

For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.

This, again, tells us that when we depart from this flesh, we are to be with Christ.

Now, one can argue that we all sleep upon death until the last trumpet. I do not argue this at all, for it is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:50-52. Yet, while we sleep in death, time means nothing. So, when we die (sleep), the very next thing we know, we are with the Lord.

In short, we are both correct.

Your Brother In Christ,

OneLight

[givennewname]

The plain truth of the matter is that there is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it clearly states " When we die we will go to heaven".

Can you explain what these verses mean to you, especially what is in bold?

2 Corinthians 5:1-8

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, is he not?

God Bless,

OneLight

Replaced God with the Father

First of all you have made the same mistake that many have and always have made about these verses.

Your highlighted words say"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". The mistake that is always made about this verse is that it is always read or interpreted " TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY IS TO BE IN THE PRESENTS OF THE LORD" but it is always over looked that verse says " WE ARE CONFIDENT, YES, WELL PLEASED TO BE RATHER".

You see that word "RATHER" is always over looked. Which means that the verses does not say " To be absent from the body is to be in the presents of the Lord" Instead the verse says that we would "RATHER" be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord".

These verses are talking about the flesh which is our house while we are in this world and verse six says just that "while we are at home in the body (of flesh) we are absent from the Lord"

So to say " To be absent from the body is to be absent from the Lord" is not written anywhere in the bible, is a misquote of what the word really says which leaves out one word which changes the whole of what the verse is actually saying which leads to and is part of a false doctrinal teaching. Which is "When we die we go to heaven" along with being part of the pre-trib concept as well.

Jesus is always our example and we should look at Him as such. So what did Jesus do when He died on that day? Paul says that He first "descended into the Lower reaches of the earth" before He rose from the grave.

Is there anywhere in the bible that says that what will happen to us will be different then what happened to our Saviour? No!

Dear Brother Massorite,

Greetings in the name of the Lord.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The verse emphasises not ''rather"" but ""confident"" as seen in the frequency of the word confidence, faith and not by sight in the preceding verse. Who are we confident in. The answer is in the Lord and not in man that we will be with the Lord when we die.

This is also not the only verse quote in the Bible the suggest that we will be with the Lord when we die, this other verse being just one.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

compare this verse with:

Mar 10:40 but to sit on my right hand or on my left hand is not mine to give; but it is for them for whom it hath been prepared.

So to say " To be absent from the body is to be absent from the Lord" is not written anywhere in the bible, is a misquote of what the word really says which leaves out one word which changes the whole of what the verse is actually saying which leads to and is part of a false doctrinal teaching. Which is "When we die we go to heaven" along with being part of the pre-trib concept as well.

Not so. the word ""rather'' does not change the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, which talks about the flesh as a habitation while we are here and dying which would take us to be with the Lord. Just because Paul included a preference for one option, to be with the Lord does not negate the certainty that we will be with the Lord when we die.

The context of a verse do not only hinge on a single word, the context depends on the preceding or in the next couple of verses or even in the flavour or general context of the whole chapter.

So to say " To be absent from the body is to be absent from the Lord" is not written anywhere in the bible, is a misquote of what the word really says

Read the verse again, it says what it says. rather word doesn't change the flavour of the verse.

Jesus is always our example and we should look at Him as such. So what did Jesus do when He died on that day? Paul says that He first "descended into the Lower reaches of the earth" before He rose from the grave.

Is there anywhere in the bible that says that what will happen to us will be different then what happened to our Saviour?

To claim that we should follow everything Jesus does is ridiculous. No where in the Bible are you asked to be crucified and take on the sins of the World!! That is the prerogative of the Son of God! so is descending to Hades and resurrection by one's own power!

Which is "When we die we go to heaven" along with being part of the pre-trib concept as well.

pre trib concept does not require going to heaven when we die. Anyway, I would have thought that if you hold to a literal translation of the Bible, The pre-trib wold be the position that fits best.

New creature

Edited December 17, 2007 by givennewname

[Christian]

Hello my brothers in Christ,

I will always stress my appreciation for civlity within one of my threads and I am so very thankful for you three (Massorite, givennewname, and Onelight), and your handling of this subject so far. This has been very compelling reading for me as all sides of this topic are having a little light shined upon them. It is certainly not an easy subject as we are forced to compare Old and New Testament viewpoints, Hebrew/Aramaic language against Greek/Latin translations, and literal versus interpretive translations of verses.

I am sorry that I have not been able to contribute more of late but I have been in a frenzy trying to get ready to leave town for Christmas. I will be flying home to be with my family in NJ for the next 10 days and won't be able to check in here at Worthy until I return. I know this is an open forum, but I'm wondering if you three might consider taking a break on this topic until I return so that I may remain active with you and not fall too far behind? You have all spurred me to some extra study and I would love to keep going 'round with you.

I will gladly PM all three of you upon my return and we can pick up right where we left off if that's OK with you.

May His blessings, healing, and love rest upon you, your families, and loved ones.

May this season before us remind those around us of our Lord's entry into this world to save us.

May His sacrifice for us not be lost in the eyes, hearts, or minds of anyone,

and may we be the ones to make sure of that.

With open arms I wish you much love my brothers in Christ,

in His glorious name,

Christian