Absent from the body...

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Shiloh,

The soul being unconcious is one thing. The spirit of a man being unconscious is a different thing. That is where the problem with "soul-sleep" comes into light.

A lot of people use "soul" and "spirit" interchangablly, and they are not. The spirit of a man is eternal, the soul is not. When may people teach soul sleep, they are saying that it is spirit that remains in the body, in the ground in a suspended, "sleep" state until the resurrection and there is simply no scriptural support for that teaching. So far, nothing presented in favor of this theory actually states that man remains spiritually "asleep" until the resurrection

The 'soul' is the entire being of man, not what it is thought of today. We are agreed on that. The 'living soul' is composed of body, mind and spirit. The mind and Spirit dwell in the brain, which dwells in the body, comprising the 'living soul'. The spirit that a man is born with is a 'carnal spirit', one not 'in harmony' or 'subject to' the 'Law of God' thus subject to 'death' and not eternal. This is why there is a 'resurrection from this death'.

and no amount of confusing concepts like "immoratality" and "eternal" will change that.

Sorry to confuse you with the concept of 'immortality' and 'eternal'. I don't find them to be confusing at all. They actually clear up confusion that permeates the issue we are discussing.

There is glaring problem and that is the mentioning of those martyrs under the altar is not written in symbolic language

Hmm. Do you realize how large that 'non-symbolic altar' would be. Do you think that they enjoy being under that 'non-symbolic altar'. Is that all they do is lie under that 'super large' altar and cry. Do they just 'cry' this 'one time' or continually, I guess I would cry too if I was stuffed under an 'unsymbolic altar. God says in heaven that there will be no sorrow, no crying. I, personally, would rather be 'unconscious'.

It becomes way too convenient, when we come up with a problem in the book of Revelation to dismiss it as "symbolic." When the Bible uses symbolism it indicates it. However the account of the martyrs does not possess any textual indicators that we would expect to show us that figurative or symbolic language is being used.

There is no problem with the book of Revelation, it is with the understanding of it that the problem arises. When people try to understand it literally, when the majority of it is 'figurative', although true.

Revelation is rich in symbolism but not EVERYTHING in the book of Revelation is symbolic. That is just really convenient crutch.

Very true, but to just categorically treat something out of Revelation as non-symbolic, when it is 'rich in symbolism' is dangerous to say the least and treading on very thin ice for support and then must be filtered through the more direct teachings of the Scriptures, such as presented below.

If the textual indicators cannot be produced to show #1 that the text is symoblic and #2. What it is symbolic of, then the only interpration that remains is the literal interpretation by default. If no symbolic indicators can be produced, what we have are people who died in Christ and are not "sleeping" at all.

A very good indicator is these 'souls' who are stuffed under this 'humongous, non-symbolic altar'. Once again we are in agreement, these sleeping souls are not sleeping, they are dead, buried and awaiting the 'resurrection' in 'silence'. Here is some 'non-symbolic' Scripture which is very definitely 'declarative' in nature, meaning stating a plain fact or truth.

Ps 146:1 Praise the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.

146:2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being (life).

146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

146:4 His breath (breath of life) goes forth (from him), he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

It is up to the soul-sleep crowd to demonstrate the symbolism by showing the martyrs as symbolic or simply have the courage and integrity admit that there is a text that provides a serious problem for their theololgy.

I'm not a member of that crowd. The symbolism has been exposed. It takes much 'courage' and 'integrity' to 'buck the system' of 'canned theology' handed down to Protestantism from the 'Mother Church' and follow Scripture. I believe this is what these martyred saints did and that is what got them martyred, 'burnt at the stake' for their 'courage' and 'integrity'.

As usual it is very stimulating to discuss issues with you, we seldom agree, although I think we did twice here, no matter I love you brother,

God Bless,

Dennis

[Willow99]

I find no support from the bible that the soul lives forever. Actually, it says the opposite: the soul that sins shall die.

Willow99

That scripture verse is quoted out of context. Go back to Ezekiel and read it in context.

Hi, could you help me out? I don't see where it is out of context.

Willow99

[Christian]

That scripture verse is quoted out of context. Go back to Ezekiel and read it in context.

Greetings Brother givennewname,

Given the context of these verses:

Ezekiel 18:4-9

(4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

(5) But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

(6) And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

(7) And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

(8) He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

(9) Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

I fail to see what is quoted out of context here by Willow99?

It is saying, as she has said, that the soul that continues in sin without repentance towards God, and faith in Christ, shall die the second death and thereby shall be separated from the presence of God, enduring his wrath.

Blessings to you brother,

in His service,

Christian

[Massorite]

Yes! As I was pondering on this post today I remembered about Samuel, Saul and the witch of Endore. When Samuel was conjured up He said "Why have you disquieted me"? The word "Disquieted" means to be angered or disturbed or irritated, agitated and so on. And since Samuel asked the question we know that in death he was able to think, get angry, to reason and ask questions. He was shall we say semiconscious. My opinion on this is that Samuel was resting in the same kind of sleep that Lazarus was but was awakened which made him angry or agitated.

I believe that when we die it will be like taking a nap. And when we wake up it will be time to stand before the Lord in heaven as an acceptable gift from His Son.

This mirrors my thinking when asking about the silence of Lazarus, and how there is no unquestionable, incontrovertible "words" spoken by him in Luke's parable. Only cross-"rationalization" and "assumption" makes one arrive at the position that he is an active part of the interaction. Here Samuel, upon "rising" possesses a conversational ability, but only upon being disturbed/disquieted to be "brought up". We do not haveunquestionable, incontrovertible scriptural verse evidence which allows us to know if he possessed and utilized this ability while he was "down" where he was (grave/paradise). I don't think it impossible to comprehend that the "good" get to "rest" and await Christ, and the "bad" get to be "awake" so that their punishment/torment may be felt.

What is also interesting about 1 Samuel 28:19 is that whether "awake or asleep", Samuel "rises" having a foreknowledge of events that have not yet occured relating to Saul, his sons, and the Israelites.

Blessings to you brother,

in His service,

Christian

That was a great point about Samual having foreknowlegde about certain events that were to take place.

I believe that when we die saved or unsaved Judgement takes place at the moment of death which is why the rich man is already suffering eternal torment and Lazarus is resting. Both were recieving their just rewards from the choices they made before their death.

[Sion]

Yes! As I was pondering on this post today I remembered about Samuel, Saul and the witch of Endore. When Samuel was conjured up He said "Why have you disquieted me"? The word "Disquieted" means to be angered or disturbed or irritated, agitated and so on. And since Samuel asked the question we know that in death he was able to think, get angry, to reason and ask questions. He was shall we say semiconscious. My opinion on this is that Samuel was resting in the same kind of sleep that Lazarus was but was awakened which made him angry or agitated.

I believe that when we die it will be like taking a nap. And when we wake up it will be time to stand before the Lord in heaven as an acceptable gift from His Son.

This mirrors my thinking when asking about the silence of Lazarus, and how there is no unquestionable, incontrovertible "words" spoken by him in Luke's parable. Only cross-"rationalization" and "assumption" makes one arrive at the position that he is an active part of the interaction. Here Samuel, upon "rising" possesses a conversational ability, but only upon being disturbed/disquieted to be "brought up". We do not haveunquestionable, incontrovertible scriptural verse evidence which allows us to know if he possessed and utilized this ability while he was "down" where he was (grave/paradise). I don't think it impossible to comprehend that the "good" get to "rest" and await Christ, and the "bad" get to be "awake" so that their punishment/torment may be felt.

What is also interesting about 1 Samuel 28:19 is that whether "awake or asleep", Samuel "rises" having a foreknowledge of events that have not yet occured relating to Saul, his sons, and the Israelites.

Blessings to you brother,

in His service,

Christian

That was a great point about Samual having foreknowlegde about certain events that were to take place.

I believe that when we die saved or unsaved Judgement takes place at the moment of death which is why the rich man is already suffering eternal torment and Lazarus is resting. Both were recieving their just rewards from the choices they made before their death.

Samuel always had that knowledge from God while he was alive. So being brought back to life by the witch why wouldn't he have it still.

Everyone who has ascended into heaven ascended alive not dead.

Christ came back to life to ascend into heaven.

Enoch was taken up alive.

Elijah was taken up into heaven alive.

As a mater of fact there is not one single person who has went to heaven when they die.

This is why there is a resurrection from the dead at Christs return.

[Pilgrim7]

Amen Sion,

One problem with the Witch of Endor, she did not bring Samuel back to life, only God can do that, for only He gives the 'breath of life'. I doubt that you think that they can raise the dead, probably just a figure of speech. The Pagans have always thought that they had to the power to contact the dead, although that is impossible, for as you state they are 'dead', their brain activity has ceased, as the Scriptures teach, the "very day they die, their thoughts perish", they have no consciousness of emotions of feelings, no memories, for they are 'dead'. This false concept is what led many Pagans into 'ancestor worship' and praying to the 'dead'.

Thus what I believe is happening here, is God gave a vision of Samuel to Saul, telling him that the kingdom has been taken from him and that God had left him. Although God could have raised Samuel to give Saul the message, and then taken him to heaven or put him back to rest again. Here again, Saul is in disobedience to God who has forbidden such 'heathen practices'.

I really doubt that it is to be used to teach that all of the 'dead' are in a conscious state somewhere just awaiting opportunities to be called back by Pagan witches. When the Pagans conjure up the dead, it is not really the the actual dead person, but evil angels, the only spirits who are available for contact here, other than the Spirit of God, who impersonate the dead, thus deceiving those who put credence in this practice. Notice how shocked the witch was when she saw Samuel, whether in vision or actuality, which shows that it was something unusual to her, that God had intervened and it was not the usual evil spirits that she had contacted.

Isa 18:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits (evil spirits), and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

We make doctrine out of plain, declarative statements from the word of God, not necessarily out of every occurrence in the Scriptures which may have some figurative meaning or which may be used by God to make a point for some specific situation that He is dealing with.

God Bless and welcome,

Dennis

[Massorite]

Yes! As I was pondering on this post today I remembered about Samuel, Saul and the witch of Endore. When Samuel was conjured up He said "Why have you disquieted me"? The word "Disquieted" means to be angered or disturbed or irritated, agitated and so on. And since Samuel asked the question we know that in death he was able to think, get angry, to reason and ask questions. He was shall we say semiconscious. My opinion on this is that Samuel was resting in the same kind of sleep that Lazarus was but was awakened which made him angry or agitated.

I believe that when we die it will be like taking a nap. And when we wake up it will be time to stand before the Lord in heaven as an acceptable gift from His Son.

This mirrors my thinking when asking about the silence of Lazarus, and how there is no unquestionable, incontrovertible "words" spoken by him in Luke's parable. Only cross-"rationalization" and "assumption" makes one arrive at the position that he is an active part of the interaction. Here Samuel, upon "rising" possesses a conversational ability, but only upon being disturbed/disquieted to be "brought up". We do not haveunquestionable, incontrovertible scriptural verse evidence which allows us to know if he possessed and utilized this ability while he was "down" where he was (grave/paradise). I don't think it impossible to comprehend that the "good" get to "rest" and await Christ, and the "bad" get to be "awake" so that their punishment/torment may be felt.

What is also interesting about 1 Samuel 28:19 is that whether "awake or asleep", Samuel "rises" having a foreknowledge of events that have not yet occurred relating to Saul, his sons, and the Israelites.

Blessings to you brother,

in His service,

Christian

That was a great point about Samuel having foreknowledge about certain events that were to take place.

I believe that when we die saved or unsaved Judgment takes place at the moment of death which is why the rich man is already suffering eternal torment and Lazarus is resting. Both were receiving their just rewards from the choices they made before their death.

Samuel always had that knowledge from God while he was alive. So being brought back to life by the witch why wouldn't he have it still.

Everyone who has ascended into heaven ascended alive not dead.

Christ came back to life to ascend into heaven.

Enoch was taken up alive.

Elijah was taken up into heaven alive.

As a mater of fact there is not one single person who has went to heaven when they die.

This is why there is a resurrection from the dead at Christs return.

That is a good point and here is a bit of trivia. Look for a record of the death of Ezra. I think you will find that it does not exist. Some of the research I have done has shown me that the word Esdras which is the name ascribed to a couple of the Apocryphal books which are not in the bible we read from is another word for Ezra and those books claim that Esdras was taken up. I do not abide by these books but they are interesting. I do read them with my heart/Holy Spirit and I believe that some of them should never have been removed from the bible.

[Christian]

That was a great point about Samual having foreknowlegde about certain events that were to take place.

I believe that when we die saved or unsaved Judgement takes place at the moment of death which is why the rich man is already suffering eternal torment and Lazarus is resting. Both were recieving their just rewards from the choices they made before their death.

Greetings Brother Massorite,

I have one question regarding your statement above. It is referenced, or inferred, more than a few times in the Scriptures that all the dead "not in Christ" will be raised for judgement in the end (at the Great White Throne judgement), as we discussed in our other thread.

If your statement above is true, then why would the dead that are "not in Christ" need to be raised again to be judged again in Revelation 20:11-13?

Blessings to you dear Brother,

in His service,

Christian

[Massorite]

That was a great point about Samual having foreknowlegde about certain events that were to take place.

I believe that when we die saved or unsaved Judgement takes place at the moment of death which is why the rich man is already suffering eternal torment and Lazarus is resting. Both were recieving their just rewards from the choices they made before their death.

Greetings Brother Massorite,

I hforeknowledgeJudgmentreceivingMasoniteave one question regarding your statement above. It is referenced, or inferred, more than a few times in the Scriptures that all the dead "not in Christ" will be raised for judgment in the end (at the Great White Throne judgment), as we discussed in our other thread.

If your statement above is true, then why would the dead that are "not in Christ" need to be raised again to be judged again in Revelation 20:11-13?

Blessings to you dear Brother,

in His service,

Christian

I never thought of that before. However there is a difference between suffering torments like the rich man was doing and the second death. The rich man is in what is considered to be "Hell" and as we know from scripture. Hell is also cast into the lake of fire so we know that hell is a separate place from anywhere else. I am afraid I don't have a concrete answer for you because I don't think there is any scripture I can glean from. There is no doubt that the rich man has already been judged because he is already suffering the rewards for his choices and Lazarus is being comforted by Abraham. We also know from scripture that those who die in Christ will not take part in the great white throne judgment but everyone else will. We also know that the book of life will be opened also so there will be those who's names are written in the book of life that will take part in the great white throne judgment.

To bad the bible doesn't tell us if Samuel was in the bosom of Abraham or not when he was conjured up. It would be interesting to know where he was.

[Massorite]

Amen Sion,

One problem with the Witch of Endor, she did not bring Samuel back to life, only God can do that, for only He gives the 'breath of life'. I doubt that you think that they can raise the dead, probably just a figure of speech. The Pagans have always thought that they had to the power to contact the dead, although that is impossible, for as you state they are 'dead', their brain activity has ceased, as the Scriptures teach, the "very day they die, their thoughts perish", they have no consciousness of emotions of feelings, no memories, for they are 'dead'. This false concept is what led many Pagans into 'ancestor worship' and praying to the 'dead'.

Thus what I believe is happening here, is God gave a vision of Samuel to Saul, telling him that the kingdom has been taken from him and that God had left him. Although God could have raised Samuel to give Saul the message, and then taken him to heaven or put him back to rest again. Here again, Saul is in disobedience to God who has forbidden such 'heathen practices'.

I really doubt that it is to be used to teach that all of the 'dead' are in a conscious state somewhere just awaiting opportunities to be called back by Pagan witches. When the Pagans conjure up the dead, it is not really the the actual dead person, but evil angels, the only spirits who are available for contact here, other than the Spirit of God, who impersonate the dead, thus deceiving those who put credence in this practice. Notice how shocked the witch was when she saw Samuel, whether in vision or actuality, which shows that it was something unusual to her, that God had intervened and it was not the usual evil spirits that she had contacted.

Isa 18:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits (evil spirits), and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

We make doctrine out of plain, declarative statements from the word of God, not necessarily out of every occurrence in the Scriptures which may have some figurative meaning or which may be used by God to make a point for some specific situation that He is dealing with.

God Bless and welcome,

Dennis

Again I say. What about the rich man and Abraham? Abraham was long dead before the rich man but both of them were thinking, reasoning and carrying on a conscious conversation in death. Scripture tells us that both the rich man and Abraham were dead. If you can not produce any scriptural back up for your belief that death brings a dead mind also then Abraham and the rich man had an active mind that was working perfectly good even after death. And to say otherwise is a contradiction of what the word of God says about the two dead people.