The Great Whore of the Revelation (chp 18)

[Guest shiloh357]

I am not employing allegory at all.

Exactly.

Yes, exactly. Which is why my exegesis is not "inconsistent" as you allege.

[nebula]

Maybe so; I'm not sure what a preterist sounds like; aren't they on the endangered species list? My overall point is, once we understand what John's letter meant to his intended hearers, then we have a basis for contemporary application. The first order of business, though, is to hear it with first-century ears, so to speak, minus all of the speculative noise, minus all of the conjecture, etc. What did it mean to John's intended audience?

I've never said that Revelation wasn't relevant or applicable to Christians today; it most certainly is, otherwise it wouldn't have been preserved for us. What I have serious doubts about is whether the prevailing popular view is the correct one.

OK - I'm still not getting you.

I need to understand, do you consider Revelation to be like a parable? Or do you consider it a book of prophecy? Or what?

If prophecy, do you consider it a prophecy of then modern times? Or of the End Times?

[MrsSealedEternal]

Well then, Rufus -

Please clarify yourself, because this is what I am hearing from your words.

Me too. Are you saying that the woman, spoken of in Revelation has already been revealed for the first centuy christians, who you claim that John wrote if for, so the christians of today are reading about a non-coming prophecy, because revelation is a book of prophecy. You are sounding like a preterist.

Maybe so; I'm not sure what a preterist sounds like; aren't they on the endangered species list? My overall point is, once we understand what John's letter meant to his intended hearers, then we have a basis for contemporary application. The first order of business, though, is to hear it with first-century ears, so to speak, minus all of the speculative noise, minus all of the conjecture, etc. What did it mean to John's intended audience?

I've never said that Revelation wasn't relevant or applicable to Christians today; it most certainly is, otherwise it wouldn't have been preserved for us. What I have serious doubts about is whether the prevailing popular view is the correct one.

Dear Rufus of Cyrene,

I have been biting my tongue about the sunglass emoticon you are so fond of, too. Thank goodness ur a humorous guy, preteristic or not.

Now, I believe even the first century spirit filled believer who had been studying the same scriptures that we do would of been able to come to understand that this revelation of the Lord was going to be actively at work until all the things written in it are fulfilled. I take issue with the thought of reading it in such a 1 dimensional manner as to only apply it's fullfillments to first century alone, because the Lord said to understand whenever whosoever reads it that it was concerning Him...

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Then earlier in the thread I explained what I believe about God's timekeeping cuckoo clock with a 24hour day gear, a thousand year day gear, and an eternal day gear working together.

Well, when John testifies that...

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,

...I believe it is inclusive of all the day gears in God's timekeeping cuckoo clock.

And what is the fulfillment we are looking for in the revelation of Christ? I believe He tells us here...

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Rev 21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

Rev 21:6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

Rev 21:7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Therefore, from this day to that day...

Rev 22:7 "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book."

Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

Rev 22:9 But he *said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."

Rev 22:10 And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Rev 22:11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Rev 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Rev 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

God Bless

[Smalcald]

Maybe so; I'm not sure what a preterist sounds like; aren't they on the endangered species list? My overall point is, once we understand what John's letter meant to his intended hearers, then we have a basis for contemporary application. The first order of business, though, is to hear it with first-century ears, so to speak, minus all of the speculative noise, minus all of the conjecture, etc. What did it mean to John's intended audience?

I've never said that Revelation wasn't relevant or applicable to Christians today; it most certainly is, otherwise it wouldn't have been preserved for us. What I have serious doubts about is whether the prevailing popular view is the correct one.

OK - I'm still not getting you.

I need to understand, do you consider Revelation to be like a parable? Or do you consider it a book of prophecy? Or what?

If prophecy, do you consider it a prophecy of then modern times? Or of the End Times?

Revelation is a combination of apocalypse, prophecy and epistle. It is not a true apocalypse because we know who wrote it. The majority of apocalyptic literature is either anonymous or pseudonynomous, that is either the author is unknown or is writing under a pen name. It is prophetic in that it has predictive elements in it. It is an epistle in that there was an occasion (sp?) that prompted the writing of it, and all of it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That said,the first questions to ask of the text are 'what was John's intent in writing it' and 'how did the recipients of the letter hear it?' Revelation is first and foremost a word from God to the church concerning their present situation.

But the things described in Revelation often have to do with things which have not occurred, mainly the Second Coming.

But there is a deeper issue of interpretation you bring up impacting how we understand all of scripture. Was the New Testament written as a guide to a couple of hundred or possibly a few thousand ancient Christian congregations living in Asia Minor between 45-100 AD, or is it God's Word to all of humanity? The fact is we don't know much about those groups, we know a little, but not much, so if it was a personal letter to those individual little congregations, the New Testament has very little use for us today as we can never hope to really understand it. I personally believe that scripture was written for all people who have ever lived; TO all future AND past generations of believers throughout all time. It was written with the forknowledge of all of the billions of people who would read it, and it was written to all of them and directly relavent to all of them.

[Kansasdad]

19 Write therefore the things which thou hast seen, and which are, and which must be done hereafter.

I think far too often people do not understand that the majority of Revelations is written about what hast been seen and that which was current at the time. Only a small part is about the future, far too often this is lost in the understanding of the book. The message is for all generations, the specifics most often are describing the current (their time) or their past. It becomes a real stumbling block when we try to attach the descriptions to current institutions, or people. The message applies, the actual detail of the description does not.

God Bless,

K.D.

[Massorite]

Well then, Rufus -

Please clarify yourself, because this is what I am hearing from your words.

Me too. Are you saying that the woman, spoken of in Revelation has already been revealed for the first centuy christians, who you claim that John wrote if for, so the christians of today are reading about a non-coming prophecy, because revelation is a book of prophecy. You are sounding like a preterist.

It does sound to me that Rufus is a "Preterits" who believes that nearly all of the book of Revelation has already taken place. The problem with the preterits concept is that they have to move the date of the writing of the book of Revelation up to before 70 AD. Instead of the actual year of 96 AD. They also have to bend history and scripture to justify what they believe.

[Smalcald]

19"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

Okay, yes and included in the above are "what will take place later" things like:

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I don't think this has happened, either in the literal view or in the allegorical view, regardless of how you want to view Revelation.

If Revelation was simply an interesting history and allegory about the Roman Empire and Nero, really who cares? That view neuters the book and really makes it not logical particularly when compared to the judgment passages shown above, if that were the case why join them?

[nebula]

Revelation is a combination of apocalypse, prophecy and epistle.

Why do you say this? How is it so?

It is not a true apocalypse because we know who wrote it. The majority of apocalyptic literature is either anonymous or pseudonynomous, that is either the author is unknown or is writing under a pen name.

You lost me here.

By what rule does apoclyptic literature need to have an unknown author?

And are you saying Daniel didn't write the visions written in the book of Daniel? That Isaiah wasn't Isaiah? Zechariah didn't write the book of Zechariah?

It is prophetic in that it has predictive elements in it.

This may be a case of semantics, but prophecy isn't about "predicting" anything.

It is an epistle in that there was an occasion (sp?) that prompted the writing of it, and all of it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Is this not true for all the books of the Bible?

That said,the first questions to ask of the text are 'what was John's intent in writing it'

Jesus told him to.

and 'how did the recipients of the letter hear it?'

Well, unless you can produce a diary or commentary of someone who is among the original recipients, I doubt seriously you can determine exactly how they heard it.

Revelation is first and foremost a word from God to the church concerning their present situation. That's the point of control for any subsequent interpretation and application.

The present?

Rev. 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place....

Revalation is first and foremost about Jesus. Second, it is to show His servants what must "shortly" place. (Keeping in mind that God counts off time different than us.)

What's problematic is that far too many otherwise well-educated and thoughtful people skip this step, many of them Christians who have been in the faith for decades and who ought to know better. Consequently, I hear some of the strangest notions about what a particular vision "means".

I think ttranslations of these visions are weird, too. The Whore being the Roman Empire is one of them.

[Guest shiloh357]

19 Write therefore the things which thou hast seen, and which are, and which must be done hereafter.

I think far too often people do not understand that the majority of Revelations is written about what hast been seen and that which was current at the time. Only a small part is about the future, far too often this is lost in the understanding of the book. The message is for all generations, the specifics most often are describing the current (their time) or their past. It becomes a real stumbling block when we try to attach the descriptions to current institutions, or people. The message applies, the actual detail of the description does not.

God Bless,

K.D.

No, no. The details are very important in any prophetic Scripture given in the Bible. The details are extremely relevant, because it is the details that determine the difference between a true fulfillment of biblical prophecy and a man-made attempt at fullfilling a prophecy. When the details are fufilled, we know it is God.

Take for example, the return of Israel to their homeland. Jeremiah 32:44 tells us that when the Jews return to the land from worldwide exile (not the Babylonian exile), they would buy parcels of land, and Jeremiah tells us exactly what land would be purchased. He gives us precise locations. The Jews in the late 1800s and early 1900s purchased land in what was then called "Palestine" from absentee Turkish landowners who were all too happy to rid themselves of the worthless deserts and swamps. If you look at Israel proper, it sits on the exact same purchased land parcels that Jeremiah predicted right down to the cities of Negev where many Israelis live today. The Jews did not purchase any land after the Babylonian exile and that is why we know the OT prophecies about Israel's return to the Land have nothing to do with the return from Babylon.

The Jews who settled the land were mostly agnostic and atheist, and had no use or care for the Bible. They fulfilled Bible prophecy down to the last detail and had no idea who was guiding them. Had they been religious Jews, people could have said, it was not God, but just a bunch of religious fanatics trying to force Bible prophecy to come true. Ezekiel, in an obscure prophecy, tells us that part of Israel's restoration will include the return of the Shekel as Israel's currency, and today that is already true.

So, details are extremely important, because anyone make something look like a fulfilled prophecy, but the truth is that God, historically has always fulfilled every prophecy thus far down to the last detail.

The detailed descriptions in Revelation are jsut as important as the rest of what is written.

[MrsSealedEternal]

Rev 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

Well, I am including end times events to be part of what I believe any first century Spirit and Truth filled believer could of come to understand when studying all the scriptures, including the ones concerning the revelation of Christ as testified to by John.

I think they could of grasped an understanding of how the beast and Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth committed fornication together and came to rule with their power, AND that there would be another antichrist empire like it that would rise up and be bent on one world conquest, coming to power, uniting under it's rule that all should worship it's beastly image, which is really not made in God's image, until the end of this age, instead of the the King of kings and Lord of lords, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Alpha and the Omega, whose appearing will be...

Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

Rev 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality."

Rev 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,

Rev 17:5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

Rev 17:9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,

Rev 17:10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.

Rev 17:13 "These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

Rev 17:14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

Rev 17:15 And he *said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.

Rev 17:16 "And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

Rev 17:17 "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

Rev 17:18 "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth."

...my head feels like it's reeling a little, but I really feel the need to stress these parts ...

Rev 17:10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

Rev 17:11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.

Rev 17:13 "These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

Rev 17:14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

Mat 13:37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,

Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

Mat 13:40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Mat 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.

I just cannot believe that ancient pagan rome is the complete and proper fulfillment of the scriptures concerning the mystery of Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth and that this prophecy does not bear a future signifigance.

God Bless