Works / Faith in the Believer

[EricH]

First off Eric, the "Fat portions" have nothing to do with the lesson of Cain and Able. The lesson from that is that one brother offered a righteous sacrifice to God and one did not. God accepted the right one and not the one he was looking for.

You are smiply wrong in this. The fact that the author delineates the portion that Abel offered (and that this was unusual for that culture) indicates that it was important. That is why it is important to understand cultural backgrounds

Second off, I know that it is the faith that saves and through our faith works are produced. I am not arguing that.

But im many of your posts you maintain that there is something in thw works themselves that partners with faith in our salvation. That is simply not true. It is the faith alone that leads to salvation. Works are an outcome of that saving faith

Third, I have read here many times where people have plainly stated that faith and works are not related. Eph 2:8,9 has been used so many times to squash James that I have lost count. People here have stated that one can get to heaven without works using Eph 2:8,9 when we read that in James it says that faith without works is dead.

As I have read the interaction, what they are disagreeing with is your position's characterization of the relationship.

Answer me this - Will a faith without the works as laid in in James save a Christian?

True faith will lead to the works that God has created for us. How this plays out will differ form individual to individual. Sanctification is a process, not an event. However, the works play no role in the person being declared righteous. (singular event). Both the singular event (the exercise of faith, and the changed life (ongoing sanctification) require God's grace. Neither can be produced by the individual under their own power

[Ovedya]

True faith will lead to the works that God has created for us. How this plays out will differ form individual to individual. Sanctification is a process, not an event. However, the works play no role in the person being declared righteous. (singular event). Both the singular event (the exercise of faith, and the changed life (ongoing sanctification) require God's grace. Neither can be produced by the individual under their own power

So EricH,do you believe some one that claims Christ and never produces a single good fruit but continues in the sin they were involved in b4 the professed Christ is truly saved and on there way to heaven?

This is a baited question which leads to a OSAS debate. Don't go there.

[Vickilynn]

This is a baited question which leads to a OSAS debate. Don't go there.

Shalom,

AMEN!!

And we have several threads trying to do the same thing!

[Vickilynn]

Also, what I have been trying to convey is that without these works we will lose our salvation because we are not doing the will of God. Doing the will of God is also considered "abiding in the doctrine of Christ" and we see that if we do not abide in the doctrine of Christ we do not have God.

These are not what saves us, but they are the things that make our faith perfect, because without them our faith is dead. We cannot stay saved without them.

Shalom CC,

The Scriptures state we cannot LOSE our salvation by lack of works.

The Scriptures state that we are neither saved by works or "stay" saved by works.

James does not state that we will lose our salvation if we sin.

We have assurance that if we abide in Jesus (heart to heart, not works) we will go to Heaven.

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one

[Vickilynn]

And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23 NKJV)

Now he who keeps His commandments (SEE ABOVE VERSE!!!) abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. (1 John 3:24 NKJV)

Okay, let's look at what you just said here and I will copy what you posted -

Now he who keeps His commandments (SEE ABOVE VERSE!!!) abides in Him,

Now, if this is saying that that when we keep his commandments we are "abiding" in him then when we read this -

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Shalom CC,

Nope.

2 John 1:9

9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

The doctrine or teaching is verse 2 of 1 John 3, which is:

And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love

one another, as He gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23 NKJV)

Now he who keeps His commandments (SEE ABOVE VERSE!!!) abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. (1 John 3:24 NKJV)

BTW, it's the ones who CONTINUALLY choose to sin. Not everyone who sins.

[Vickilynn]

2 John 1:9

English Standard Version (ESV)

9Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ,(A) does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Cross references:

1. 2 John 1:9 : 1 John 2:23

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9Anyone who goes too far and (A)does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Cross references:

1. 2 John 1:9 : John 7:16; 8:31; 1 John 2:23

King James Version (KJV)

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

New International Version (NIV)

9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

9every one who is transgressing, and is not remaining in the teaching of the Christ, hath not God; he who is remaining in the teaching of the Christ, this one hath both the Father and the Son;

The ONLY one that says "doctrine" is the KJV.

[Ovedya]

Now, if this is saying that that when we keep his commandments we are "abiding" in him then when we read this -

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

We see that the if we DON'T abide in doctrine of Christ we are NOT keeping his commandments and since we are not keeping his commandments we don't have the Father or the Son.

The "works" that we do as explained in James that both show and perfect our faith is the keeping of the commandments of God.

What is this "we" you keep talking about, card? As I pointed out earlier in this thread, you are misapplying 2 John 1:9 - wrenching it from it's intended context and message and applying it "us." However, clearly, according to verse 7, it applies to "them" - the deceivers, who are of the antichrist, who do not have the Father or the Son..

[matthew4:4]

I see some great posts here. I too support once save always saved and the fact that once someone is truly saved they will continue to feel compelled by the Holy Spirit to do good works. It is a characteric of a follower of Christ. If you know someone who claims to be Christian but doesn't seem to exhibit it through their daily life then its very probable that they are not truly saved although since I am not God and do not know the hearts of men I could never say for sure whether someone is saved or not.

The best way to look at it is this: Jesus has given us the promise to be saved in many different parts of scripture such as Romans 10:9, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Amen! What an incredible promise! Now a question, Does God ever break His promises? When one truly believes and is truly saved they are then sealed by the mark of God as one of God's children. This is a permanent bond with our loving Father, and because you love Him and He loves you, you will continue doing good works in Him. Amen. May God bless all you guys and keep you on the path of righteousness! Your brother in Christ, matthew

[Vickilynn]

BTW, it's the ones who CONTINUALLY choose to sin. Not everyone who sins.

Nobody is arguing that, but it keeps getting brought up.

Shalom CC,

YOU are arguing against that. It is only the ones who CONTINUALLY CHOOSE to sin, not those who sin that are being judged.

However, you keep saying the one can lose their salvation by not doing good works and that is not what the Scriptures say.

James does not say that we need works to maintain our salvation.

[Vickilynn]

Now, how can our faith save us if it is dead and not perfect?

Shalom CC,

How can you ask the same question over and over, receive the answer and still not "get it."

Please, read Bib's word study on what it REALLY means. It does not mean the faith is non-existent. It means the faith is not effective for rewards, NOT FOR SALVATION.

Ephesians 2 makes it clear that there is nothing else required to be saved. Not works, nothing but faith because it is by grace, which is a free gift of G-d.

This is the simple truth, and you cannot add any requirements to it, for G-d does not.

Ephesians 2:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.