Calvin vs. Arminius

[childeye]

I am a 5 point card carrying calvinist.

Reading through many of these posts its easy to see why the confusion exists. Of course in other places its simply because some one has a bias that is not biblical pers-se but philosophical.

In other places its because the questioner or accuser is ill informed or has made assumptions made from their own logic not based upon the actual doctrinal position of the dissenter.

By the way, Id be happy to answer questions from anyone regarding the reformed faith.

R.E.

what is a reformed evangelist?

[Reformed-cross]

I am a 5 point card carrying calvinist.

Reading through many of these posts its easy to see why the confusion exists. Of course in other places its simply because some one has a bias that is not biblical pers-se but philosophical.

In other places its because the questioner or accuser is ill informed or has made assumptions made from their own logic not based upon the actual doctrinal position of the dissenter.

By the way, Id be happy to answer questions from anyone regarding the reformed faith.

R.E.

what is a reformed evangelist?

[Reformed-cross]

I am a 5 point card carrying calvinist.

Reading through many of these posts its easy to see why the confusion exists. Of course in other places its simply because some one has a bias that is not biblical pers-se but philosophical.

In other places its because the questioner or accuser is ill informed or has made assumptions made from their own logic not based upon the actual doctrinal position of the dissenter.

By the way, Id be happy to answer questions from anyone regarding the reformed faith.

R.E.

what is a reformed evangelist?

In this case it is a designation of biblical stance. I believe the scriptures teach what the reformers taught hundreds of years ago, I believe that those biblical interpretations most clearly and precisely represent Jesus Christ, the scriptures, salvation, judgment, covenant, sanctification, sovereignty and many other doctrines in the best possible understanding.

Though not perfect Im sure, when looked at systematically and biblically depicts God's message to men the best.

That being said, as an Evangelist I preach and teach according to those doctrines set down by the reformers in the creeds and confessions. Although I probaby dont adhere 100% in every position, I find my conclusions to be the most biblical to my understanding.

R.E.

[childeye]

I am a 5 point card carrying calvinist.

Reading through many of these posts its easy to see why the confusion exists. Of course in other places its simply because some one has a bias that is not biblical pers-se but philosophical.

In other places its because the questioner or accuser is ill informed or has made assumptions made from their own logic not based upon the actual doctrinal position of the dissenter.

By the way, Id be happy to answer questions from anyone regarding the reformed faith.

R.E.

what is a reformed evangelist?

In this case it is a designation of biblical stance. I believe the scriptures teach what the reformers taught hundreds of years ago, I believe that those biblical interpretations most clearly and precisely represent Jesus Christ, the scriptures, salvation, judgment, covenant, sanctification, sovereignty and many other doctrines in the best possible understanding.

Though not perfect Im sure, when looked at systematically and biblically depicts God's message to men the best.

That being said, as an Evangelist I preach and teach according to those doctrines set down by the reformers in the creeds and confessions. Although I probaby dont adhere 100% in every position, I find my conclusions to be the most biblical to my understanding.

R.E.

I see. So how do you view predestination? From the outside or inside of time or both? For example I believe that Christ was dropped into time and hence there is power from the inside to change what was inevitable death after the fall of man. However I also believe that God knew from before creation, that there would be vanity in heaven, and used the flesh of men to expose the ignorance and folly that such vanity was based upon. Namely not knowing nor properly esteeming the person of God, and the dire consequences of a false image of god upon the wills of angels and mankind.

[Reformed-cross]

I am a 5 point card carrying calvinist.

Reading through many of these posts its easy to see why the confusion exists. Of course in other places its simply because some one has a bias that is not biblical pers-se but philosophical.

In other places its because the questioner or accuser is ill informed or has made assumptions made from their own logic not based upon the actual doctrinal position of the dissenter.

By the way, Id be happy to answer questions from anyone regarding the reformed faith.

R.E.

what is a reformed evangelist?

In this case it is a designation of biblical stance. I believe the scriptures teach what the reformers taught hundreds of years ago, I believe that those biblical interpretations most clearly and precisely represent Jesus Christ, the scriptures, salvation, judgment, covenant, sanctification, sovereignty and many other doctrines in the best possible understanding.

Though not perfect Im sure, when looked at systematically and biblically depicts God's message to men the best.

That being said, as an Evangelist I preach and teach according to those doctrines set down by the reformers in the creeds and confessions. Although I probaby dont adhere 100% in every position, I find my conclusions to be the most biblical to my understanding.

R.E.

I see. So how do you view predestination? From the outside or inside of time or both? For example I believe that Christ was dropped into time and hence there is power from the inside to change what was inevitable death after the fall of man. However I also believe that God knew from before creation, that there would be vanity in heaven, and used the flesh of men to expose the ignorance and folly that such vanity was based upon. Namely not knowing nor properly esteeming the person of God, and the dire consequences of a false image of god upon the wills of angels and mankind.

Hello Childeye: I take a supralapsarian view. I share the same opinion as you as to the expose' of sin to the entire universe through the deeds of men. At judgment day all will be made known.

as to time, -lapsarian respects the fall not time perse, but I think I understand your meaning.

R.E.

[saved34]

I can't side with either. Anything ending in "ism" usually has a slight leaning towards one way of belief in spite of scriptural evidence to the contrary. Calvinism and Arminiusism are both right in many respects. I do recognize the sovereignty of God in respects that he did choose us (who believe) before the foundation of the world, I think that is without question, but I do not agree with the thought that he did it to the exclusion of the rest of mankind. God is almighty, and operates so far above what we are able to comprehend, he is not limited in time like we are, he does not wait till tomorrow to do anything. He has prepared for us, his people, well before we made that desperate cry for help to him. The other masses of mankind that will never come to him is still without excuse, because scripture is clear that our Lord has reconciled the world unto God. Only those who receive this gift will benefit from it. Those who do not believe the record that God gave of his Son has made him a liar. They will stand guilty before God almighty, not because God predestined them so, (because Predestination is only ever mentioned in connection with the blessings toward those of us who do believe), but because they would not believe.

"Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "

[Tyler John]

Goodness! What a complicated question!

I don't hold either of these doctrinal positions. I simply love Jesus and try, with the Holy Spirit's strength, to obey his commands. The depth of my depravity, who did what in order for me to be born again or who is elligible for salvation are all quite unimportant. All I really need to know is that staying in Jesus' love and obeying his commands will stand me in good stead when I stand before the throne. All I need to tell non-believers is what Jesus told me to tell them, without any academic or intellectual additions.

Bless Calvin and Arminius - they both loved Jesus. But they also got themselves and a lot of us wrapped up in knots.

[Guest scottae316]

How about neither as an answer? Both positions have some truth but both contain error and take things to an extreme. So the option of 50/50 is not correct either. Salvation is from and a work of God alone humans have nothing to do with it or it would be a work. Election is to be a comfort to the believer that God will bring about that which He has promised not some doctrine of electing some to heaven and others to damnation this is repaginate to the whole of Scripture. Christ died for all humanity, not just a limited few. This is a short answer but enough of a start.

[larryt]

How about neither as an answer? Both positions have some truth but both contain error and take things to an extreme. So the option of 50/50 is not correct either. Salvation is from and a work of God alone humans have nothing to do with it or it would be a work. Election is to be a comfort to the believer that God will bring about that which He has promised not some doctrine of electing some to heaven and others to damnation this is repaginate to the whole of Scripture. Christ died for all humanity, not just a limited few. This is a short answer but enough of a start.

Hi, scottae,

Just a question, why would Christ die for those that are not His sheep, do you not believe in limited attonement?

LT

[Guest swordofpeace]

NOTE ORIGINAL REPLY, reply to original question

Interesting post, so many replies. Has anyone actually read them all? interesting also because I had never even heard of Arminius till recently and this question is timely.

I find it interesting that theologians will invent their own terminology which is not found in the bible, and then people will fight over it tooth and nail, excommunicate each other, etc. It seems like many have very active imaginations. I just want to anchor my imagination to scripture.

Total Depravity, original sin? Well I know the church got so much from Augustine and I don't think it is safe to hold up one man so much. The bible does say all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But does the bible really emphasize our Total Depravity, that we have no goodness in us apart from grace? Show me the verses.

Anyway let me cut to the heart of my view. Calvinism has many good things I agree with like the sovereignty of God's will. I am not sure I believe in "free will". Aside from the fact we will never be 'free' but only have "freedom from" (we will either be slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness), I can undermine free will with one word- desire. Free will generally means choosing what we desire and the limited power we are given for that. Maybe God grants us that in his grace, it is possible, but without grace we have no free will, for who establishes our desires? Did we create our desires from the foundation of the world? God puts desires in our hearts I believe.

But let me tell you where I part ways with both of these people. Generally when people are arguing back and forth regarding two sides, the solution may be a third side.

Here's what I think. I suppose I am not against the main point of Calvinism per se, in that we can't choose our salvation or to follow. Even faith is a gift of god. I could be wrong so I have to be a bit agnostic on this, but ok. I simply question the doctrine of an eternal conscious torment in a place that was translated as 'hell', with no possibility of escape. What about all the versus that say that Jesus is the savior of the WORLD, the savior of ALL men especially those who believe? I won't turn this thread into an apologetics for that view. I believe though that universalism runs like a golden thread through the bible although not so immediately apparent, especially to modern eyes and those who don't go deep with the bible or who trust received theology rather than scripture unwilling to renew their minds. I could be wrong and I hesitate because I am new in studying this, but that is the sense I get, that people are unwilling to even question. And yet the LORD Yahweh repeatedly sets up a pattern where he humbles, he brings low, and then raises up, be it nations or people, so that people will know that he is Yahweh. At the very least I would say there is no eternal hell- for the word eternal is aionios and the word hell is gehenna (symbol rich only used by Jesus except once by James if I am not mistaken), and I think maybe the immortality of the soul idea comes from Greek- meaning if we are bad (unrepentent, candidates for fire) the worst we need suffer is death.

So while being a bit Calivinistic in my thinking of God's sovereignty and human will (look at Saul's conversion into Paul- he didn't COME to Christ, but Christ came to him- and blinded him) my views of at least Annihilationism or maybe better, Universalism, take the sting out of it.

And let me say one more thing I have read about Calvin, and anyone is free to defend him, because I admit I am no scholar and someone can correct me. I have read that he was a murderer and used fire to silence his critics, the heretics. Is this the message that Jesus preached? Even to a fellow Christian! Doesn't Jesus' words "By their fruits ye shall know them" apply to this? If the fruit is bad, how can the tree be good? I say this not in judgement. He was a product of his time and place, and I shall not play the blame game or the self righteousness game, but I do question whether he was a worthy teacher and source of truth in these matters, and in the doctrine of God's love.

We need to put together a doctrine of God's love. Invariably people will say- yeah but he's also holy. So we can start a poll about that. what affect God's love has on his holiness and vice versa. Now I am sure many of you, maybe the site administrators, see me as a dangerous heretic and will take actions to restrain me! I hope not but whatever, Jesus came to cause division, Jesus was called a heretic and a blasphemer. I admit, I don't know for sure these things, I am still seeking and learning, but I do know one thing on which we can agree- Christ is King, the son of God and son of Man who died on the tree to take away our sins, Amen

thank you

Edited May 9, 2012 by swordofpeace