Calvin vs. Arminius

[HawkBlue27]

I am not sure which one I would say I am in agreement with. On paper, I think Calvinism makes the most sense, personally.

[gdemoss]

Jesusism...that's where its at.

[larryt]

My position? Well I am finding it hard to keep up with this debate as I have been under extreme attack since posting. But I wanted to answer this. My position is that I am able to accept the people who believe they made a choice for salvation as well as the people who say they did not feel they had a choice, but were elected. I myself know I was elected, because Christ allowed me to get in a place in life where I had no more choices. For 40 years I believed in the death, resurrection of Christ, and accepted Him in my heart at 8 yrs, but was not saved. I had demon parasites attached onto my soul, which caused a habitual sin for 35 years. And if I were to die in that 40 years I would have gone to hell, I know it. In the last realization of my life, giving up my fate as I was to believe I was born this way, Jesus came to me and said to my heart "I am not going to protect you anymore, I have to have your all." Then I started to see other Christians who made a choice and scripture examples, and parables, and couldn't understand. Where in a secular TV show, it was revealed to me that God is sovereign even over time/space to where, even though we can not comprehend, God can make two different events happen for us at the same time and both are true. Hence, He is able to make two methods of salvation true with one way through Jesus. Question of logic: Does man have free will? Man has limited free will to pick an object off of a table or to leave it on the table, but not both. Does man really have free will? God in spirit and in his kingdom has full free will and is able to do both, for Himself. Not necessarily for any other creature. My point.

(elect) An analogy to my salvation is this: It was like I found myself in a deep river sinking with weights tied to my feet, with only a matter of time to die. I want to live, and in the distance was a cliff the river ran over. Unknown whether the bottom of the cliff was shallow and the waters ankle deep to where I would survive, or very deep, that I could die, if I swam over the cliff. What would any one with thought do? I swam over the cliff not knowing what was behind the proverbial door, but knowing if I stayed I would die. Really? A person wanting to live, and someone telling me I still had a choice. Poppycock! That's stupid. Or, there are those that the life line of Jesus is thrown out to them, and the person sinking does not know if this Person is going to kill them or enslave them for evil once on shore; is that a choice or a chance? The choice to die or the choice to chance. That is illogical. To say, these people still had a choice takes away our soul having the image of God, with worth, value and dignity. The soul is not that stupid or devalued, not to know it is in death's grip.

(choice) Yet, there are those about to step into that deep river of death, and hear the word of God not to step in, and they choose to follow the Word and not step in. If this could be real in our own existence, why not in the spiritual existence?

Two ways in life, but one Person.

Hi fixer

It is not a matter of someone not having a choice. All men have a choice and must make a choice. All will choose. Left on their own the natural man will not choose God. His mind is not and will not be subject to the will of God. God must do something to man for man to want to choose to serve God. This is what grace is all about, getting what we do not deserve. What is really amazing to me is that God changes us without forcing us to make the decision and we then are able and desirous of choosing to be subject to God. God says that He will remove the stony heart and give us a heart of flesh. Those God foreknew He will never forsake or fail in saving. Those He never knew(foreknew) will never desire to know the living God.

Adam was created in the image of God. When Adam fell things changed and the spirit in man died, was separated and alienated from God and was enmity against God. When Adam fell he was totally depraved. He went from perfect and upright before God to totally rebellious and against God.

There is only one salvation for all men, to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no other way to come to God.

When we are born in the flesh and are one of the elect, God knows us and will find His lost sheep before it is destroyed and dies. He puts the disires of our heart in us from the beginning. And when we finally make that decision it was God carrying us all the way while we were in rebellion and lost.

Grace & Peace

LT

[larryt]

Jesusism...that's where its at.

It is Jesus and only Jesus the Lord of lords.

[Guest bryanw92]

All of Armenianism puts man before God. With Armenianism, His whole perfect plan of salvation is based on whether man accepts it or rejects it - giving man power and control. Only God is in complete and total control and not hindered by mere man.

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely:

1) God gives everyone salvation

2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected

In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow.

In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination?

God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first.

[allofgrace]

What is really amazing to me is that God changes us without forcing us to make the decision and we then are able and desirous of choosing to be subject to God.

Then why is the i in TULIP, and what does irresistible mean?

[larryt]

All of Armenianism puts man before God. With Armenianism, His whole perfect plan of salvation is based on whether man accepts it or rejects it - giving man power and control. Only God is in complete and total control and not hindered by mere man.

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely:

1) God gives everyone salvation

2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected

In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow.

In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination?

God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first.

Hi Bryan,

You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed.

2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world.

Who are the elect in the following?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Grace & Peace

[larryt]

What is really amazing to me is that God changes us without forcing us to make the decision and we then are able and desirous of choosing to be subject to God.

Then why is the i in TULIP, and what does irresistible mean?

Irresistable is not quite descriptive as I mentions several times already in this thread. I prefer invincible grace and I believe that this is more to the understanding of the council of Dort which came up with TULIP.

Also one can preach Calvinism and never see a convert. One needs to preach Jesus Christ and Him only. Salvation is only by grace and not at all of works.

Grace & Peace

LT

[gdemoss]

You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall?????

Gen 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

According to Genesis, man became like God now faced with making moral judgments. The first of which pertained to his own nakedness. The very reason that Jesus Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world as God well understood that man would need a Savior.

I have always understood 'freewill' as it is termed through Proverbs 16:9 where it explains that a mans heart is what devises his way while God directs his steps. The complexity behind the human being is awesome. The fact that we, the living souls, are contained within a body that can be accessed by other entities via our hearts and that we each have a spirit that fully knows and understands the very depth of our being including all that which we cannot bear to consciously look at. I know that I am here and I am choosing but I also understand that my choices are limited as I am simply a servant and cannot do anything but serve. My service to God is fulfilled when I accomplish the task of dying to self and living for him through the power of His Spirit. Amazing.

[Guest bryanw92]

All of Armenianism puts man before God. With Armenianism, His whole perfect plan of salvation is based on whether man accepts it or rejects it - giving man power and control. Only God is in complete and total control and not hindered by mere man.

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely:

1) God gives everyone salvation

2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected

In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow.

In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination?

God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first.

Hi Bryan,

You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed.

2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world.

Who are the elect in the following?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Grace & Peace

Free will is the ability to reason and decide on a course of action based on whatever criteria you decide is best. Sometimes you make the right decision. Sometimes you make the wrong one. And the counsel you choose to listen to is your responsibility. After Pentecost, mankind was ready to receive a Counselor in the form of the Holy Spirit to guide us into the next phase of our return to the garden, which is simply full communion with God.

As for the quotes proving the elect: someone who believes strongly in Arminianism has a similar set of quotes proving his case too. Each epistle was written as a letter to a specific person or persons for a specific reason. Pulling quotes from them like they are a law book without context can serve any agenda.