Calvin vs. Arminius

[CaliforniaJosiah]

VIEWS ON 'ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED'


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


As so often in theology, we find there are "two sides of the coin." To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallable, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.

The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it.

 

 

 

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MY view...


- Josiah

[larryt]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I 100% reject BOTH of these.

They both go "too far"

They both subject Scripture to WAY to much HUMAN, sinful, fallen "logic."

They both embrace SOME Scriptures, put too much into them, and then largely "dismiss" others because they don't seem to agree.

I think there is "mystery" here - and that's okay. We don't NEED to understand; we NEED to trust/rely.

I don't UNDERSTAND how or why all these things "crank out." God does. That's all that matters.

I believe that because I believe, GOD did that. ALL good things from God. ALL related to salvation is God's doing.

I believe that we are justified by Grace, because of Christ, through faith - and that's ONE inseparable doctrine and article of faith.

HOW GOD does that - I don't know (fully).

I thus reject TULIP and DAISY.

 

Then on to the second point.

 

I reject that.

While I accept the concept of Election, I reject the idea that God gets off and is gloried by seeing people fry for all eternity in hell.

If we believe, it is solely because of God. if we don't, it's soley because of us.

Those in heaven have Christ to thank. Those in hell have self to blame - not God.

I don't thank God for seeing people fry for eternity in hell. And I don't think He smiles or laughs or is pleased with such - I do NOT believe such is His glory and desire.

 

Who said anything about God taking joy in the death of the wicked. You draw a conclusion based on your human logic. God says directly that He takes no joy in the death of the wicked. This is a question of God's sovereignty and not how can we rationalize the scripture to our puny thinking process.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

grace and peace

 

I agree with Eph. 1:5 which is why I reject TULIPS' double predestination.

 

So how do you define predestination?  It is a biblical term.  How do you define election?  Is election based on something man does or is it based entirely on the will of God?

 

If you are going to discuss this them try to positively state your position.  I have heard all the arguments against my position and have not found any that are able to positively present an alternative.  It is funny how all the debate is centered around showing why the Calvinist position is incorrect and not very much on the pro-Armenian position.

 

You have stated you reject both.  What is your alternative?  Without an alternative your statement is meaningless.

 

I define "DOUBLE predestination" as God chose some for heaven AND some for hell.    No, it's not biblical. 

 

Election is the application of the GOSPEL that we were loved as His own before the foundation of the world.

 

TULIP begins biblical enough - but then applies a LOT of fallible, sinful, LIMITED human "logic" in an attempt to have a nice, neat set of doctrines - that conflict with much of Scripture.

Arminianism begins biblical enough - but then applies a LOT of fallible, sinful, LIMITED human "logic" in an attempt to have a nice, neat set of doctrines - that conflict with much of Scripture.

 

OK, I don't adhere to "DOUBLE predestination" either.  The question is: how do you define predestination as used in the bible.

 

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

And again you do not positively state your position with your definition of predestination.

 

Now, your post on election opens up a need to define more terms.  You state your idea on election in terms of "we" and "HIs own" so are the "we" the believers or everybody.  The bible says Jesus came to save His people from their sins.  His sheep hear His voice and get saved.  The goats don't and are separated from the sheep.

 

As for total depravity in TULIP, if you believe in total depravity how is it that you cannot see the need to logically follow the rest?

 

Grace & Peace

LT

[Qnts2]

All I can say is...

 

To know does not equal to cause. If God’s foreknowing means it was His intention to cause what He foreknew (as opposed to creating and foreknowing the choices and actions of free will beings He intended to delegate certain authority to), then those who oppose God, hate Him, and reject Him are actually doing His will. The sins they sin are the sins He created them to sin. Taking this to its logical conclusion, the works of the devil are then the works of God, and were contrived according to His intent and will, thus when Christ came to destroy the work of Satan, He was working against God’s will. Hitler was then the puppet of God and only was doing what God willed Him to do irresistibly, as are all militant Islamic terrorists, etc.! God then is the cause of the fall, the cause of all sin and evil, and even the temptation that allures man to sin is the preprogrammed irresistible will of God. To this I say…God forbid this blasphemous heresy as God tempts no man. 

 

In His love

 

Brother Paul

 

I have some friends who are Calvinists. I am not a Calvinist but have talked to them enough to have a halfway decent understanding of Calvinism.  Within Calvinism is a somewhat wide range of thought.

 

What you are proposing is a logical conclusion based on a misunderstanding of Calvinism. I don't know of any Calvinist who believes what you propose. 

 

Let's start with the fall. There are two schools of thought. One which is from a more classic Calvinistic view. That God permitted the fall. That means the the possibility of a fall was there, but God never ordained that Adam was to fall.  The other is that God ordained the fall. Your assumption isn't classic Calvinism because your assumption is that God ordained the fall.

 

From there, you are assuming that God ordained all sins. But Calvinism does not teach that at all. Due to the fall, man has a sin nature, and since mans nature is to sin, God would hardly need to ordain sin, as men do that naturally.  

[Elhanan]

Although both camps do have measures of truth on their sides, ultimately they fail based on the following paradigm to which I propose a 3rd alternative.

 

Reason why I reject Calvinism:

(God is strong enough to save everyone) + (God does not want to save everyone) = Everyone is not saved

 

Reason why I reject Arminianism;

(God is not strong enough to save everyone) + (God does want to save everyone) = Everyone is not saved

 

Reason why I accept Evangelical Universalism:

(God Is strong enough to save everyone) + (God does want to save everyone) = Everyone is saved

[OneLight]

Although both camps do have measures of truth on their sides, ultimately they fail based on the following paradigm to which I propose a 3rd alternative.

 

Reason why I reject Calvinism:

(God is strong enough to save everyone) + (God does not want to save everyone) = Everyone is not saved

 

Reason why I reject Arminianism;

(God is not strong enough to save everyone) + (God does want to save everyone) = Everyone is not saved

 

Reason why I accept Evangelical Universalism:

(God Is strong enough to save everyone) + (God does want to save everyone) = Everyone is saved

 

I neither agree with one party 100%, but Universalism is not scriptural.  All through out the NT we are informed that not all will be saved.

[Guest]

Got

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

Book

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

 

Eat

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

Eat

 

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

 

~

 

Reason why I reject Calvinism:

(God is strong enough to save everyone) + (God does not want to save everyone) = Everyone is not saved

 

~

 

Reasons

 

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8
 

To Believe

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

Reasons

 

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peters 2:1

 

To Doubt

 

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

 

~

 

Reason why I reject Arminianism;

(God is not strong enough to save everyone) + (God does want to save everyone) = Everyone is not saved

 

~

 

Reasons

 

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13
 

To Believe

 

The sower soweth the word.

 

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

 

And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

 

And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

 

And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. Mark 4:14-20

 

Reasons

 

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peters 2:1

 

To Doubt

 

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. John 10:27-30

 

~

 

Reason why I accept Evangelical Universalism:

(God Is strong enough to save everyone) + (God does want to save everyone) = Everyone is saved

 

~

 

Reasons

 

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10:33

 

To Believe

 

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

 

Reasons

 

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

 

To Doubt

 

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:13-15

 

See?

 

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

 

 

[Guest]

Reason why I accept Evangelical Universalism:

(God Is strong enough to save everyone) + (God does want to save everyone) = Everyone is saved

 

~

 

To

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

 

Simplify

 

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

 

The Bible  contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers.

 

Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions immutable.

 

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy.

 

It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

 

It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter.

 

Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed.

 

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end.

 

It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet.

 

Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.

 

It is a mine of wealth, a Paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

 

It is given to you in life, will be open in the judgment, and be remembered forever.

 

It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and condemns all who trifle with its holy precepts.

 

From The Front Of My Gideon New Testament

[CaliforniaJosiah]

 

As for total depravity in TULIP, if you believe in total depravity how is it that you cannot see the need to logically follow the rest?

 

Grace & Peace

LT

 

  I accept "total depravity" because that's what Scripture says.   I reject a LOT of HUMAN logic because fallible human logic is not normative for me as a Protestant (Scripture is) and because some of that TULIP human "logic" seems to run head on with Scripture.   I documented that with OSAS.

 

 

Thank you.

 

- Josiah

 

 

.

[Patrick6099]

Oh boy, this is going to be good I'm sure. I don't have time right now to read 67 pages of conversation, but I will. Each of the five points (Tulip/Daisy) has been hotly debated for centuries by men far more intelligent than I.  I'm attending a 5 point Calvinist seminary and I am struggling with the theology.  I told one of my professors that I dare not fight his positions, but much study is ahead for me before I can reach conclusions.  Bible verses seemingly point in more than one direction.  Verses that seem to clearly support God's predetermination of man, and some that seem to support giving man some free will.  This "debate" has caused me problems because it alters how you look at God.  Some have told me that the doctrine of election gives them great comfort that God picked them out for salvation. But I would counter with, "how do you know that you were selected?".  What if there were people that had an interest in spiritual things (certainly true with all the interest in world wide religions), attended church, prayed, read their bible, but were not of the elect?  What it they believed they were saved?  We would say they were deluded, but then....might you also be?  Anyway, I'm no where near ready to take sides on the issue, but I did have a possibly very ignorant thought.   My Systematic Theology professor stated that there are five possibilities:

 

1. God could provide no opportunity for salvation

2. God could provide the opportunity for salvation for ALL

3. God could provide the opportunity for salvation for SOME

4. God could ensure the salvation for ALL

5. God could ensure the salvation for SOME  

 

Of course number one is what we deserve, but do not believe.

Number two and/or number three is the Arminian position, which I'm not sure yet

Number four is the Universalist position

Number five is the Calvinist position

 

What I have wondered is, could the Bible support number two/three and number five being equally correct?  I have this sense that we are almost boxing God in, requiring Him to fit into what it is that our minds can wrap around.  Could God be more multi-faceted than we could ever understand?

 

I'm only trying to remain as open minded as I possibly can while sorting things out in my mind and seeking answers in scripture.  Before I became a Christian, I had no concern for lost people, poor people, abused people.  Christ changed me into someone that cares about the lives of those around me and all over the world.  I personally desire everyone would come to Christ for salvation.  Where do I get that desire from if not from my Lord?  

Edited December 15, 2013 by Patrick6099

[enoob57]

One of the areas that helps me in the thought processes of God's Saving Work is

the study of Harmartiology. When one's Theology brings the Sovereignty of God

into responsibility for sin they have gone to far as that is the unforgiveable

sin... Holiness is the absence of sin eternally and God alone 'IS' Holy!

We know satan desire is to rise above God in being but we also know that is not

possible because of Who God 'IS' and the created by God... God said it like this

James 3:11-12

11 Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening?

12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs?

Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

NKJV

Love,Steven