Calvin vs. Arminius

[rca]

RCA, Again, this is getting too lengthy to keep copying the whole thread between each of us. Did you read what ErichH had to say about paradoxes, and what I quoted from Romans 11:33? Let me ask you, if you were to read the following verses, from a neutral position, without any views which need to be maintained, what would be your understanding of them?

1. "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings." (Acts 17:26)
   
2. "Your eyes saw my substance being yet unformed, and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me when as yet there were none of them." [/b](Psalm 139:16)
   
3. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)
   
4. "For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith...Having then gifts differing according to the gracte that was given to us, let us use them, if prophecy, let us prophesy, in proportion to our faith..." (Romans 12:3, 6)
   
5. "Who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, saying to Jerusalem, 'You shall be built." And to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid." Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held -- to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings, to open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut..." (Isaiah 44:28, 45:1)[/i]..."Now in the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia, that the word of the Lord, by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying, "Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah." [/b](Ezra 2:1-2) Isaiah wrote his words a century and a half before Cyrus lived, and it is doubtful that Cyrus ever heard of it before he fulfilled it.
   
6. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ORDAINED you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5) Time prohibits my going through the whole list of Old Testament prophets.
   
7. "So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying..." "But the Lord said to him. "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake." (Acts 9:11; 15-16)
   

Now, would you not say that God had sovereign control over not only special prophets, but also over every person to decide when they would live, what nation they would belong to, which tasks He prepared beforehand for them to do, how much faith they would have, and which gifts to give them? In fact, according to many people, God has control over everything except our decision for or against Christ. Nobody even really quibbles about anything else. Yet, at the same time, did not every single one of those people, including Cyrus, operate out of free will? Cyrus had NO CLUE that this is what God wanted him to du until Daniel told him. That is why it can say one place that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and in another place that Pharaoh had a hard heart.

You are asking me to read some selected verses from a neutral position. You have a prime datum to defend and so do I. So I do not see why you would ask me to read these verses from a neutral standpoint when you yourself do not read Scripture from a neutral position.

However I will respond to them.

#1 I have no problem with that. We cannot control who are parents are, where and when we are born.

#2 God knows before the foundation of the world all that we will do and exactly how long we will live. Even though murder, suicide and terror attacks all result in death due to someone's free choice.

#3 Ultimately God wants that every human being does good works and follows Christ. 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4 verify this.

#4 Reading this passage in context it is talking about not thinking too highly of ourselves. An example is given of the church (the body of Christ) consisting of many members each performing a certain function assigned by God. These are called the gifts of the Spirit. There are some gifts that seem to be more popular or important than others. For example preaching is usually seen as an important function of the church. While in reality the janitor that nobody ever sees at work is just as important. This whole topic is expanded on in 1 Corinthians 12. The last verse (12:31) of that chapter says "But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a more excellent way". One of the highly sought after gifts of the church then (and in the Pentecostal church today) is speaking in tongues (12:30). 13:1 says if "I speak in tongues and have not love" ... paraphrased "it is useless". Verses 2 and 3 are speaking about super christian that no believer ever achieves (well at least verse 2).

I am starting a new paragraph to show that I am coming to the main point. In verse 2 it says if I have ALL FAITH. The more excellent way in 12:31 of course is love. Faith in this context does not refer to salvation faith. For the context talks about the body of Christ, the church where of course all are believers and have saving faith. All faith as opposed to a measure of faith. God never gives anybody all faith to do what is all stated in 13:2. If He did then that all faith would be a gift of God. Nobody could be able to do that on their own. And if God does not give you all faith then He gives you a measure of faith.

Notice verse 3 According to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Verse 6 According to the grace given to us.

These are 2 ways of saying exactly the same thing. Verses 4 and 5 talk in generality and 6b-8 is specifics. Then in verse 9 he says "Let love be genuine... This is exactly like in 1 Corinthians 12 where the following topic is love. Going back to verse 3 and not thinking too highly of yourself. If you teach and another contributes, do not think of yourself more highly then the contributer. Only perform your gift to the best of your ability that God has given you.

Anyway what this passage does not say is anything about salvation faith. The context and the parallel passage make this clear.

#5 I have no problem with God stirring on people to do things so that God can work things out for His good will.

#6 I have no problem with God ordaining certain people to offices.

#7 Same as #5.

I believe that God indeed is sovereign but I do not believe in absolute sovereignty where He decides who will have salvation faith and who will not.

Edited November 28, 2009 by rca

[rca]

Now, I quoted that web-site because of all of the passages in that web-site. As you read those passages, what do they mean to you? Can you read them from a neutral position without trying to see how they can fall into free will or predestination? What do they honestly SAY? For instance, what does the following passages mean?

1. "The Lord has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom." (Proverbs 16:4)
   
2. "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ORDAINED to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 4)
   
3. "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath, PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION." (Romans 9:22)
   
4. "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity. I, the Lord, do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
   

Finally, a word on paradoxes in the Bible: I'll just pick one passage, but I'll just pick two: "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life...Now to HIM who is able to KEEP YOU from stumbling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." (Jude 20, 24) and quoted from the NLT: "Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. For GOd is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him, and the power to do what pleases Him." (Philippians 2:12-13) So, obedience in the Christian walk: is it God's work or ours? Answer: both. Is there predestination and free will. Answer: both.

I told you the way I get my head around it is looking at it from God's perspective and from the human perspective. The Bible does not make that distinction, it is just how I understand it. But the Bible clearly teaches both.

I would leave you with one last thing: I do not decide who is chosen or not chosen; God does that. Nor can I say that just because a person does not believe now, that they never will -- the timing may not be right. Some plant, and some water. I've had plenty of mentors in my own life. So, I do not believe it is ever, EVER a good idea to tell another that the reason they don't believe is that God did not call them. PLUS, God still tells us to go and teach all nations, so a belief in predestination does not exempt me from spreading the gospel, which is all Christ. Predestination is an issue for believers to discuss; the gospel is the same regardless of whether one believes in predestination or free will -- and it is that gospel which is to be preached. The results are left up to God and the other person, but I am not exempted from preaching. Neither was Charles Spurgeon, by the way, who was a bigger believer in predestination than I am.

Again, I am out of time, and do not have time to proof this, but I hope it answers some of your questions.

The website you quoted is http://www.predestinarian.net/library/showentry.php?e=34 This is so all readers of this post do not have to hunt for the website we are talking about. I do plan on commenting on this website as well as I have lots to say about that. But that will come later. For now I will comment on 3 of these 4 passages listed above. Any passage referring to Romans 9-11 will be addressed when I comment on that passage.

#1 I have no problem with the Lord making the wicked. God creates and forms every human being (Psalm 139:13-17). He makes everyone with a free choice. Some by their free choice will be wicked and some will be good but the Lord makes all of them.

#2 The Greek word translated as "ordained" here is "prographo". "Pro" means "before" and "grapho" means "written". From this we get words like "photography" meaning "writing of light".

In the culture that the NT was written there was of course no internet or newspapers since the printing press was not invented yet. So when a criminal was condemned to death for some crime, this was posted somewhere publicly in advance.

In verse 3 the word "grapho" or write is mentioned twice. So readers of this in the original language would notice this pun on the word "write" or "grapho". Also at that time criminals had public written notices of them, their name and what they were condemned for.

As the context shows their condemnation was written because of what they had done, what their deeds deserve. It is the same as criminals. They are condemned because of what they did, what their deeds deserve.

It was not that God decided beforehand that they should be condemned simply based on God's decided choice (without rhyme or reason) for them and then decreed them to do evil things.

It was that God foresaw that they would be evil (Romans 8:29) and so condemned them long ago.

#4 I see no problem with God creating calamity or evil. In order for there to be free choice there had to be more than one thing to choose from. God already was good so there had to be the opposite, evil. When Adam and Eve were created He put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden.

Regarding the paradoxes. I see your sense of humour when you say "I'll just pick one passage, but I'll just pick two". However you picked 2 choices not 1. That is a truth, not a paradox.

I will have now state one key verse to understanding these verses. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. [PHI 4:13]

KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God: This is something we do with God's help, not alone. John 15:6 says "Without Me (Jesus) you can do nothing".

Now to HIM who is able to KEEP YOU from stumbling: If we do things through Christ, He strengthens us. His strengthening us can keep us from falling.

Philippians 2:13 says For it is God which worketh in you both to WILL and to do of his good pleasure.

A believer has a general will to please God. Romans 7:14-25 talks about the dilemna of wanting to please God and not being able to carry it out. Romans 7:25 says that I (Paul) serve the law of God with my mind (general will to please God), but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. Temptation to sin gets in the way of our wanting to please God. This is called spiritual warfare (Ephesians 6:10-20). God tempts nobody (James 1:13). God does not allow you to be tempted beyond your ability and He provides a way of escape (1 Corinthians 10:13). This is what is meant by God working in you, giving you the desire to obey Him. You have the general desire to please God. However when temptation comes you need God's working (1 Cor. 10:13) so that you can still obey Him despite temptation.

If you do not have the general will to please God, then God will not be able to work in you the desire to obey Him. Faith requires that you want to please God (Hebrews 11:6). And if you are not a believer yet, then God is working on you to convict you of sin (John 16:8-10). First you have to realize that you are a sinner, that you want to come to God (Hebrews 11:6) and please Him (general will). Then God saves you and begins His work in you.

2 Peter 1:3-11 talks about the teamwork involved in being a believer. Verses 3-4 show that God has given us everything required to live a godly life. Verse 5 starts with "For this very reason" connecting it to verses 3 and 4. Then it says "make every effort...". This is our part.

Verse 8 says "For if these qualities (verses 5-7) are yours and increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ". That is they keep you from falling (Jude 24).

Then verses 9-11 says that if you maintain doing this, you will never fail. Your salvation is secure.

Verses 3 and 4 are all God's doing. It only takes 2 verses to tell us what God does and 7 verses (5-11) to tell us what we need to do.

This is teamwork, co-operation between God and man. In Colossians 1:29 Paul says For this I toil, struggling with all His energy that He powerfully works in me. In Philippians 4:13 Paul says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Then in John 15:6 it says Without Me (Jesus) you can do nothing. These 3 passages clearly show the teamwork mentioned in 2 Peter 1.

It is these passages (2 Peter 1:3-11; Col. 1:29; Phi. 4:13; John 15:6) that form the framework of how I believe God works. God works through us, not for us. God provides the strength. It is up to us to use His strength. With that framework these 2 so called paradoxes are no problem for me.

I agree that the answer to So, obedience in the christian walk: is it God's work or ours?. The answer clearly is both. But it is not because God does all this for you. It is because God gives you the strength to do this. We have to decide if we want to use His strength. Sometimes despite all of God's actions we still sin when temptation comes. It is not that God never gave us what we needed to overcome the temptation but that we chose not to use His strength.

Is there predestination and free will We both have the same answer. Both But my idea of predestination is different than yours. That I will discuss on a later post.

[Rhonda Lou]

rca,

I would like to respond to this one phrase you wrote: You are asking me to read some selected verses from a neutral position. You have a prime datum to defend and so do I. So I do not see why you would ask me to read these verses from a neutral standpoint when you yourself do not read Scripture from a neutral position. When I read those verses the first time, I read them from a neutral position. Let me see if I can explain myself a little better, in what I mean by "neutral" position.

When I read, "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has predetermined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings." (Acts 17:26), I see that as saying that God predetermined which nation should be where, and since they were nations of men, then God decided which men should be in which nation. When I read, "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me; when as yet there were none of them." (Psalm 139:16), I see that God ordained the number of days for me before one of them came to be. When I read, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10), I believe that God created me for certain good works that only I could do in the time that He allotted me and in the place that He allotted me to live here and now. I believe that you would agree with these interpretations. When reading these passages, that is what they mean, not from any agenda, but from a simple reading. Now, in order to perform these good works foreordained beforehand, God gave me spiritual gifts to "get the job done." That is what Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4 and 1 Peter 4 are about. You are correct in stating that this is not speaking about salvation faith, but it is speaking about the fact that God predetermined when and where I would live, and what I would do with my life, even giving me gifts to do what He predetermined I would do.

Now, there is a precedent that God predetermined certain people for certain tasks and or elected them. For instance:

• For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers. (Deuteronomy 7:6-8a) Please note that God chose Israel, not because of anything Israel is or did, but because He loved Israel, and because He promised Abraham -- whom He chose to be the father of many nations, particularly His own chosen people. The fact that He chose Israel from all other nations to be His own chosen people speaks of some sort of selection, in just a simple reading of the text, and the text clearly states that it is not because they chose Him, but because He chose them.
  
• And the Lord saiid to her: Two nations are in your womb, two peoples shall be separated from your body; one people shall be stronger than the other, nd the other shall serve the younger. (Genesis 25:23) Although this passage does not explain why God said that the older would serve the younger, in direct violation of the norm at that time, Romans 9:10-12 DOES explain it: "And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even byour father Isaac, (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who cals), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." A simple reading of this verse percludes that Jacob was chosen because of his works or anything that he would do, the purpose of God was in the election or choosing. To add any other interpretation to this Scripture is to take away from what it clearly says.
  
• "According to all that I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you will make it." (Exodus 25:9). Then the Lord said to Moses, saying:, "See, I have called by name Bezalel the Son or Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronce, in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship. And I, indeed I, have appointed with him Aholiab the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan; and I have put wisdom in the hearts of all the gifted artisans, that they may make all that I have commanded you..." (Exodus 31:1-6) So, God got involved with the planning and execution of building the tabernacle -- even to choosing certain men from among the messes to be over the building of it. God gets involved in His creation and with His created people. He is sovereign. I could go on and on with examples from the Bible, and I listed others in my other posts. You do not deny that God chooses certain people for certain tasks.
  
  
  In effect, what I was stating is that God chooses when we will be born, what we will look like, where we will live and what we will do in our lives. From what I understand, you do agree with this. The only exception to this that you don't believe is that God predetermines who will be saved, just as He has predetermined every other aspect of our lives. Yet, the Bible says:
  
  
  
  
  • For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to WHOM HE WILL." (John 5:21) This passages does not say that the Son gives life to everybody -- only those He wills.
    
  • All that the Father GIVES ME will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out...This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has GIVEN ME I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last days...No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS HIM and I will raise him up at the last day...And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED TO HIM by My father." (John 6:37, 29, 44, 65) This says that God will grant belief to certain people, and everybody He grants it to will believe.
    
  • ...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will GRANT them repentance, so that they may know the truth. (2 Timothy 2:25)
    
  • When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God , saying, "Then god has also GRANTED to the Gentiles repentance to life. (Acts 11:18) The Jewish people, who had been chosen by God, were glad that God also chose some Gentiles to believe. Now, among the Gentiles, there was also joy: "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48) You have stated that "appointed" (or ordained, according to the KJV) either means appointed by God, the primary meaning, or appointed by mutual consent, a secondary meaning. There is no acknowledgement of mutuality here -- the Gentiles are happy that the ones whom GOD appointed, did believe. God decided first, then they believed.
    
  • "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29) "elect according to the forknowledge of god the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:2) "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." (1 Peter 1:20) The same word is used in all of these places, and it carries the meaning of predetermining for a purpose. A ruse of Greek grammar, called the Granville rule, equates predetermination and foreknowledge.
    
  • Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His wil, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved...In Him alse we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things accoding to the counsel of His will, that we who first rusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were raised with the Holy Spirit of promise. (Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-13) Now, here it says that God predestined us before the foundation of the world -- not because of anything we did or are -- but according to His purpose and for His glory. It adds that when we heard the gospel, we believed, just as Acts 13:48 says that those whom God appointed 'believed", our moral responsibility.
    

  These passages, along with John 1:12-13, which says that our becoming Christians is not the will of flesh, nor of man, but of God, all show that the purpose of he selection is for God's glory, and is not based on what we will do. You've stated that God knew we would believe and so He predestined us to believe; but the passages state otherwise. In fact, I think you even said that about John 1:13, but the passage clearly says NOT the will of flesh NOR the will of man. That is why I say that God chose apart from "knowing what we will do." However, I have never denied that we must be morally responsible for our choices. Those who were "appointed" by God believed. In reading exactly what that passage says, I cannot deny that we must believe. God predestined us according to His purposes, yet we also trusted after we heard the word of truth, and after having believed, we were raised by the Spirit of Christ. I have never denied this -- we ARE morally responsible for believing in Christ. We are also without excuse, as you have repeatedly pointed out by quoting Romans 1:18-31 -- God gave us creation as a witness to Him. I am simply reading all of these texts and accepting them all as the truth of God. Where we have come to disagreements is where I have stated how I put them together logically in my own mind, something I have repented of by stating that the Bible does not offer an explanation of how they fit together -- just that they do.

  EricH has offered an example. 2 Samuel 24: says, "Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." This clearly says that God was moved against Israel and CAUSED David to move against them. 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, "Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel" So, God caused David to move against Israel. Satan moved David to number Israel. One could say that God moved David against Israel, using Satan as His agent. Yet, in verse 8, David tells God, "I have sinned greatly." David was still morally responsible. If you read 1 Chronicles 21:1 and say, "See, Satan did it" -- meaning you take the words at face value, and you read 1 Chronicles 21:8, and say, "See, David sinned of his own free will" -- reading it exactly for what it says and taking it at face value, why do you not read 2 Sameul 24:1 where it says, "Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go number Israel and Judah" at face value, and accept it for what it says? Someone from a neutral position would accept all three because the Bible clearly SAYS all three. Now, does that make sense? Not now to humans because we don't understand everything, and God's ways are past finding out, or as Ecclesiastes 3:11 puts it: "No one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end." So, no, I don't understand it -- but I believe it because the Bible says it. That is what I mean by being neutral -- accepting what the Bible says, even when we don't understand it, becuase the Author of the Bible -- GOD HIMSELF -- is a God of love and I trust Him above all else. The difference is that I quit trying to figure it out, and I just state what the Bible actually SAYS, stating I believe it by virtue of the fact that the Bible says it. I just don't know what else I can add to that.

[rca]

This is regarding the belief that God chooses who will choose God. This really means that man has no free choice. The choice was already determined by God. I cannot see how both can exist at the same time (man's choice and God's choice). I will call this God choosing theology. Many that have a God choosing theology for whatever reason do not like to call themselves Calvinists even though their teaching is really the same.

Anyway the above belief can lead to fatalism. Since everything has already been ordained by God and is unalterable you might as well eat, drink and be merry and not be overly concerned about following God's commands. Your eternal destiny is fixed no matter what you do. There also is no urgency to evangelize since those that God wants to be saved will be saved anyway regardless if we evangelize or not. Also it does not lead to real revivals since there seems little motivation to totally commit your life to following God.

Now many that teach this God choosing theology may personally seek the Lord truly with all their heart and they may evangelize with heavy hearts to reach the lost. But that teaching can easy lead to the students of this teaching to follow God half heartidly at best.

James 3:1 warns about how teachers will be judged more strictly than others.

If through this God choosing theology even one student is led astray to the point of not really practicing the christian faith anymore and ending up in hell, this teaching would be the cause of his downfall. Jesus says that whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened about their neck (Matthew 18:6).

So there is serious warnings to teaching a theology that can easy lead to fatalism.

Edited November 29, 2009 by rca

[Rhonda Lou]

This is regarding the belief that God chooses who will choose God. This really means that man has no free choice. The choice was already determined by God. I cannot see how both can exist at the same time (man's choice and God's choice). I will call this God choosing theology. Many that have a God choosing theology for whatever reason do not like to call themselves Calvinists even though their teaching is really the same.

Anyway the above belief can lead to fatalism. Since everything has already been ordained by God and is unalterable you might as well eat, drink and be merry and not be overly concerned about following God's commands. Your eternal destiny is fixed no matter what you do. There also is no urgency to evangelize since those that God wants to be saved will be saved anyway regardless if we evangelize or not. Also it does not lead to real revivals since there seems little motivation to totally commit your life to following God.

Now many that teach this God choosing theology may personally seek the Lord truly with all their heart and they may evangelize with heavy hearts to reach the lost. But that teaching can easy lead to the students of this teaching to follow God half heartidly at best.

James 3:1 warns about how teachers will be judged more strictly than others.

If through this God choosing theology even one student is led astray to the point of not really practicing the christian faith anymore and ending up in hell, this teaching would be the cause of his downfall. Jesus says that whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened about their neck (Matthew 18:6).

So there is serious warnings to teaching a theology that can easy lead to fatalism.

I'm not sure how God can choose and we can still have moral responsibility, but for the texts that I've outlined in previous posts, I believe it because the Bible teaches it, as one accepts the Scriptures at face value. I have heard the fears outlined in this post from others. I would like to speak to them.

It is stated that the belief in predestination can lead to fatalism. This is because it is feared that if every event is planned beforehand, this will stop people from acting, or evangelizing, because God will do His will, with or without us, and that attempts at witnessing would be half-hearted at best. However, I see no Scriptural truth in these fears. For instance, Paul, who taught predestination, or God's choosing, determined to preach nothing except Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2). He went to prison, was beaten, and beat up, all for preaching the gospel -- eventually giving his life in its defense. When he preached to unbelievers, he did not preach predestination -- He preached Chr1st -- and urged their belief. The Scriptures are too numerous to cite. In Acts 2, Peter preached the gospel, and then in verses 38-39 told unbelievers to repent and be baptized. In Acts 3-4, he and John were imprisoned for their faith. When told to quit preaching, Peter said that they must obey the will of God more than the will of man. Peter also gave his life for the gospel. Yet in 1 Peter 1, he makes it clear that he believes in predestination. John believed in predestination, and as was already mentioned, was imprisoned for it. He was in Patmos when he had the visions included in he book of Revelation. According to John 20:30-31, John stated that his purpose in writing the book of John was to write these things down, so that people might believe. Jesus also speaks of predestination in John 6:37, 39, 44 and 63, yet His final words before ascension were, :"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:19-20) According to Luke, Jesus said: "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:46-47) Therefore anybody who fails to evangelize to a lost world, teaching repentance and remission of sins, is being disobedient to God's (Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity's) direct command.

There is a reason that the managers of Worthy Boards placed this thread in the Inner Court (for believers only) doctrinal issues section -- unbelievers need to know Christ and Him crucified -- not predestination. My biggest reason for believing in predestination is because a straightforward reading of Scripture says that it is there. My biggest reason for defending it here is because I believe God to be sovereign, and would not wish to see that sovereignty lessened or compromised. My entire life is dependent upon God: from when and where I live, to the works that I do, to the ability to do them -- and even my salvation and sanctification. Yet, having stated all of that, God does give us moral responsibility, and we are to act in accordance with His will. I would not choose God, so I am extremely thankful that He chose me. However, I did not receive the promised salvation until I cooperated with God's plan, repented, renounced sins, forsook self, and promised to depend upon God for my salvation and sanctification. Both are there.

The other concern is that in teaching this to others, that they would not wholeheartedly seek God, and would abuse the teaching. I can not be responsible for what others do, and I only teach about this when the subject is raised, and only among believers. This is an aspect of a growing Christianity, not an aspect of preaching to unbelievers. However, to compromise my beliefs for fear they would be misunderstood or abused is to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

The best Scriptural example I can use for this is that there were two opposite reactions to the gospel written in the Bible. Some believed that the fact that stating a belief in Christ led to salvation meant that one could continue in sin because, hey, you're going to heaven anyway. Paul writes about this: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? GOD FORBID. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Romans 6:1-2) From there, Paul explains that when we were baptized into Christ (Immersed into Christ -- not immersed into water), we "died" with Him, were "buried" with Him and "rose" with Him into newness of life -- the old is done away with, and therefore we are urged to live the new life we have received. Others were so afraid that they would give into licentiousness that they back-pedaled and were overly concerned with the keeping of the law. Paul answers this concern in Galatians 3:1-3; 2:20: "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect in the flesh?...I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gae Himself for me." Paul tells the Galatians, who are going back to the law, the same exact thing he told the Romans, who were disregarding the law totally: when you were saved you were crucified to the flesh with Christ, buried with Christ and rose again with Christ -- you are a new person. In fact, according to Colossians 1:27, Christ in us is our hope of glory, and according to Colossians 3:3 says, "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." This is the good news of salvation: Christ is in us, we have new life, we are able to be good from our heart on out, here and new, because we are indwelt by Christ through the Holy Spirit. That truth is never compromised, even though some took it to a liberal extreme, and others took it to a legalistic extreme. The good news did not change, and Paul was never afraid to teach it, for fear that some would misunderstand it -- but tried to speak to those misunderstandings. Any person who is truly saved, has repented, is depending upon God, and has the Holy Spirit in their hearts, will not lose their salvation and go to hell -- nor will they ever return to a life which includes the love of sinning since the whole purpose of their salvation was to get AWAY from the love of sinning.

Just as Jesus is both fully God and fully Man, just as Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God making intercession for us, and yet is abiding in us, just as God has made us a new man, giving us a new heart and Spirit (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ezekiel 36:26-27), we are to "put on" this new man, which God has already created in righteousness and true holiness (Ephesians 4:22-24) -- just as all of these things are absolutely true, so it is also true that God chose us before the beginning of time for the purpose to the praise of His glory (Ephesians 1:4-11), and yet, we are to trust and believe in Him (Ephesians 1:13). That is what the Bible says, and that is what I believe. It is what I will continue to teach at the right time and in the right setting.

May God's peace be on all who read this, and I appreciate the opportunity to present my "case" for predestination, so to speak. Thank you.

[kross]

Can someone explain to me why they believe Calvinism is fatalism? I do not get it.

[EricH]

Can someone explain to me why they believe Calvinism is fatalism? I do not get it.

I believe it is due to a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine of election

[Rhonda Lou]

Can someone explain to me why they believe Calvinism is fatalism? I do not get it.

Kross,

I believe we have conversed enough to know that we both absolutely agree with each other on the doctrine of election -- God is soveregn, and draws us to Him. We can not come any other way. Yet we have a moral responsibility to accept that call, even though His plan is that we will.

So, when I explain why others believe Calvinism is "fatalistic", please know that I do NOT agree with them!! They say it because if there is no choice in what we do, and God decrees everything, and no matter WHAT happens, He's already decided it will and acted to bring it about -- then we do not have to lift a finger to do anything at all. We can sit back and watch Him work. Those who would be saved, will be, even without our input. Simply the idea of this happening, and us with no say so whatever, is what they call "fatalistic". Yet I see us as cooperating with God to bring about His will, to His glory, and for His purposes. I see hope, not fatalism.

The other dilemma for those who see this as fatalistic is that if somebody is not a believer, there is no hope for them since they are "not chosen". I view unbelievers as being unbelievers FOR THE MOMENT, and since I don't know if they are saved or not, I will do everything I can to give them the facts they need, and I will pray for God to open their spiritual discernment to receive the seed I pray He's worked through me to plant. So, for me, there is hope, not fatalism.

I hope that answers your question.

Rhonda

[rca]

Colossians 2:13a says, "And you, being dead in your trespasses..." How can a dead person believe? "A person in the flesh cannot perceive God: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed CAN BE." (Romans 6:8) "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; NOR CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14) How can one who CANNNOT understand the things of God be saved? Romans 3:11-12 and 23 says, "11No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God, 12All have turned aside; together they have gone wrong and have become unprofitable and worthless; no one does right, not even one!...23Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives

[Rhonda Lou]

rca,

One final post. It is taking way too much time from other ministerial efforts, and I'm beginning to feel childishly stubborn. I pray, as ever, that God writes this through me, and that it is lovingly gentle.

From reading your post, I believe the new things you've brought up are a belief that the Prodigal Son parable speaks to free will over God's sovereignty, and that 2:14 is speaking about new believers or babes since Paul is speaking to Christian infants in 1 Corinthians 3:1.

THE PRODIGAL SON

In Luke 15, Jesus tells the parable of the Prodigal Son to Pharisees and Scribes, who were being snobbish for keeping the law. A parable is a story from one's own experience meant to make a moral point. They could relate to a human father with two sons, the eldest being obedient to the law, but sinful in his heart in that he is unable to forgive the younger, unlawful son, who has repented. The human father forgave the sinful son. That is the context. Now, about this story, I believe that you are thinking that the youngest son lost his salvation. He did lose his inheritance, or reward in the family, but he remained the human father's son in good and evil times. I liken this moral or spiritual principle to 1 Corinthians 3:12-15: "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." The prodigal son never lost his salvation, or sonship --he lost his moral compass.

Another point that you made about this parable is that the father showed emotions -- waiting for the son to return -- without affecting what the son did. I never said that God does not show emotions. I have already quoted 1 Samuel 24:1, where God is angry. Ephesians 4:30 says, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." God can be grieved by our behavior, yet the Holy Spirit is still His promise of our future salvation at the day of glory. However, God will and must do what He says, even if He is hurt emotionally through it. This passage never says otherwise.

There is one distinction between this parable and God. This father was human, and therefore powerless to effect the life of his son. God is all powerful and is able to effect the lives of His children. We read in Philippians 1:6, for instance that He who began a good work in us, will bring it to completion. We read in 1 Corinthians 8 that Jesus "will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." We read in Jude 24: "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." 2 Corinthians 3:18 says, "But we all, with unveiled faces, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

This does not exempt moral responsibility. I am not saying that God does it all, and we don't do anything. We are to cooperate with God. As I have stated before, Jude 20 says that we are to build ourselves up in the most holy faith. The best example of this can be found in Philippians 2:12-13, and I'll quote it from the NLT: "Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey Him and the power to do what pleases Him." All of these passages speak to God's power in our lives, making us holy and blameless -- and it all happens much faster if we cooperate with God, something any true Christian will do. The human father in the parable of the prodigal son had no power to help his son return to him. Therefore, he looked daily for his son to return.

1 CORINTHIANS 2:14

Rather than beginning with 1 Corinthians 3:1, I am going to begin with 1 Corinthians 2:6: "However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing." This age is spelled out in Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." This age is of unbelievers, caught up in their lusts, and the prince of the air, or Satan. These people are dead in their trespasses until God makes them alive. Now, returning to 2 Corinthians 2, beginning in verse 7: "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written: 'Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.' But God has revealed them to us (believers) through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, es the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world (world = unbelievers) but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. BUT THE NATURAL MAN DOES NOT RECEIVE THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD, FOR THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS TO HIM, NOR CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED." Thus the natural man of the world cannot understand spiritual things, since it requires the Holy Spirit -- God has revealed them to "us" Christians. The NLT renders 1 Corinthians 2:14 this way: "But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit says." Until God opens one's minds to receive the truth, one cannot understand it. Now, in 1 Corinthians 3, I believe that Paul is telling the Corinthians, whom he already mentioned had the Holy Spirit and were not among the people of this world who cannot understand, to start acting like it. He is saying, "I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but as carnal" because they had been fighting God's work in their lives. Again, the NLT renders this verse: "Dear brothers and sister, when I was with you I couldn't talk to you as I would to mature Christians. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in the Christian life." "As though" does not mean they WERE the people of the world, only that they were acting as though they were.

Now, I read the rest of your post, and discovered other passages. I'm going to go over them quickly. Jude 10: The book of Jude was written to warn against false teachers: "For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 4) These teachers are FALSE, they are not TRUE Christians, they are FALSE Christians PRETENDING to be true Christians. Since, they do not have the mind of Christ, they do not understand the things of Christ. Verse 10 says, "But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves." They don't know what they are talking about because they are natural, not spiritual.

1 Peter 4:6. Here I'll defer to John MacArthur's study bible, page 1916. He says, "Peter had in mind believers who had heard and accepted the gospel of Christ when they were still alive, but who had died by the time Peter wrote this letter. Some of them perhaps had been martyred for their faith. Though these were dead physically, they were triumphantly alive in their spirits. All their judgment had been fully accomplished while they were still alive in this world ("in the flesh"), so they will love forever in God's presence." I would add that the gospel is preached to spiritually dead people, but God opens their minds to understand the truth as He draws them to Himself. Those He does not draw, never understand the spiritual things of God.

As to the Old Testament passages, in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit never permanently indwelt people. He came and went. John 14:16-18 says, "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you FOREVER, that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, AND WILL BE IN YOU." Jesus says in John 16:7: "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you, but if I go, I will send Him to you." It is only through the Holy Spirit indwelling us that we have His sustaining power throughout all of life. In the Old Testament He came and went, and the believers did not have that resource we have. It did not happen until after Jesus ascension, but has been with all believers since then.

There's not really much I can add to this and I am sorry it is incredibly long. I spent 5 hours on one post the other day, and 3 hours today. That does not include all of the posts in between. It's time to move on. I trust that you love God -- which is totally God pleasing, so I leave you wishing His peace in your life.!!