Calvin vs. Arminius

[allofgrace]

Actually you have not read many of the posts here. If you did you would notice that I have been posting here consistantly for several years. For me this is the most important thread because it is the heart of the gospel. Either man is totally depraved or his isn't; either election is unconditional and based solely on God's sovereignty or it is conditional and based on something in man; either Jesus died for every single person that ever lived and saved them or He died for his people and saved every single one not loosing any; either God's grace is INVINCIBLE (rather than irresistible IMO) or it is not; and either the saints persevere or they don't.

I noticed the one you was posting to is away for a few days and as you state in your first sentence, I have not kept up except with a hit and miss reading. But I did notice above that the other was made aware that one of his terms was not scriptural and I noticed these two words I highlighted are not in the scriptures either, regardless of which is preferred. And you mentioned His sheep hear His voice, but they are already saved if they are His sheep so that is not strange. And John 1:12 says one becomes a child of God by receiving Christ so they cannot be His sheep prior to receiving Him by faith. Calvinist do have a way with explaining their opinions which are contrary to scripture, like the elect are regeneration in order to believe, but they are not forced to believe but do so freely. But they do not believe that the gospel has the power of God in it with enough power to convict the sinner of their sins because they are dead in their trespass and sins. But they over look the fact that they too, are dead in trespass and sin before they are regeneration in order to believe freely. Seems like it works for one group but not for the other. I don't recall where that is found, could you point me to that passage(s). Not to mention that God calls all men to repent (Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,) Sure sounds like must include all men every where to repent. How can it be even the Calvinist special term, a general call if they can not hear the call? Until both sides can use the same words printed in the scriptures equally, there will be no resolutions or coming to terms as I see it. Just remarked because I saw the contradiction that one should use scriptural terms and wanted to see if that applied to both sides of the issue.

Edited March 4, 2013 by allofgrace

[larryt]

Actually you have not read many of the posts here. If you did you would notice that I have been posting here consistantly for several years. For me this is the most important thread because it is the heart of the gospel. Either man is totally depraved or his isn't; either election is unconditional and based solely on God's sovereignty or it is conditional and based on something in man; either Jesus died for every single person that ever lived and saved them or He died for his people and saved every single one not loosing any; either God's grace is INVINCIBLE (rather than irresistible IMO) or it is not; and either the saints persevere or they don't.

I noticed the one you was posting to is away for a few days and as you state in your first sentence, I have not kept up except with a hit and miss reading. But I did notice above that the other was made aware that one of his terms was not scriptural and I noticed these two words I highlighted are not in the scriptures either, regardless of which is preferred. And you mentioned His sheep hear His voice, but they are already saved if they are His sheep so that is not strange. And John 1:12 says one becomes a child of God by receiving Christ so they cannot be His sheep prior to receiving Him by faith. Calvinist do have a way with explaining their opinions which are contrary to scripture, like the elect are regeneration in order to believe, but they are not forced to believe but do so freely. But they do not believe that the gospel has the power of God in it with enough power to convict the sinner of their sins because they are dead in their trespass and sins. But they over look the fact that they too, are dead in trespass and sin before they are regeneration in order to believe freely. Seems like it works for one group but not for the other. I don't recall where that is found, could you point me to that passage(s). Not to mention that God calls all men to repent (Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,) Sure sounds like must include all men every where to repent. How can it be even the Calvinist special term, a general call if they can not hear the call? Until both sides can use the same words printed in the scriptures equally, there will be no resolutions or coming to terms as I see it. Just remarked because I saw the contradiction that one should use scriptural terms and wanted to see if that applied to both sides of the issue.

Do you believe I am a Calvinist? Why? Have you read why as I have stated that I am not a Calvinist?

And the words invincible and irresistible are the terms used in the OP of this thread.

I bellieve the Arminian possition is contrary to scripture and fail to address many of the paradoxes in the bible.

In the eyes of God His sheep have always been His sheep. In time and space here on the earth there is a particular moment in time when they are BORN of the Spirit. A baby starts physical existace when the egg is fertilized. If you do not understand eternity past and future you will not grasp what I am saying. God does not have to deal with time, He is beyond time and if you have eternal life you will understand. Christ is REVEALED in His children at a particular time but in eternity they have alway been know of God.

Were you chosen/elected before the foundaiton of the world? If you are not chosen then you are not His as He never knew them that claimed to be His followers.

[GoldenEagle]

Isaiah 55:8-9

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,

Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.

⁹ “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So are My ways higher than your ways,

And My thoughts than your thoughts.

God's thoughts are pretty awesome and much higher than my thoughts. His ways are much higher than my ways.

So this is just one man's humble opinion. I don't mean to over-simplify this debate but...

Opinion:

Personally, I believe the Bible makes a case for both views. To me, the Bible is not a 50/50 (Calvin and Arminius) proposition. To me it is more of what marriage should be - not a 50/50 proposition but a 100/100 proposition. To me it's more like 100% God's Holy Spirit moving drawing people to God (John 6:44) and 100% Man's responsibility to hear Christ's knocking/open the door (Rev. 3:20). I'm not sure how it all works but I trust Him. I trust that He understands it. I trust that my understanding of the situation doesn't really change His moving of the Holy Spirit in peoples' lives or the certainty for Hell if one does reject the Holy Spirit. I trust that I don't need to understand it all. I trust that God doesn't make mistakes. To me it boils down to trust.

John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev. 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Like I said is this an over-simplification? Perhaps.

I personally believe Christians spend way too much time on this debate that will only be resolved when Christ returns.

[allofgrace]

Were you chosen/elected before the foundation of the world? If you are not chosen then you are not His as He never knew them that claimed to be His followers.

Yes I was chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world to be transformed into His image because the scriptures say that whosoever shall call on His name shall be saved(Rom 10:13). And Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Therefore, seeing as how I received Him when the gospel revealed to me my sinfulness and my need to have my sins forgiven, they also told me that God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. I believed Him and received Him as my Savior therefore as the Romans 8 passage says, all things work together for good to those who God, to those who are the called according to His purpose and the next 2 verses being in context must be true also because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit of Truth. Therefore, being an heir with Christ I am sealed unto the day of redemption. But when the scripture says God commands all men to repent, I believe He commands all men to repent and that they are capable of obeying. When He says whosoever will may come, I believe He means whosoever will may come. That is the purpose of Christ coming into the world as I understand it, to seek and to save that which is lost. And like He said, He did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. John 6:63 it is the Spirit that makes one alive, the flesh profits nothing the words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life. This is the reason that the dead in trespass and sin can hear the good news to come to repentance because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. I believe His word is true as it is written without explaining away the words that are used in scripture.

[saved34]

You have not explained what you mean scripturally by "pricks the heart" or where you come up with this idea.

Brothers, forgive me for once again butting into the middle of your discussions. Larry, you read the KJV, "pricking of the heart is biblical". The Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of men and they either reject, or accept the message being delivered.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

The same basic message led to Stephens death because men were pierced(pricked) in heart or convicted.

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Two different aspects of what happens when the Holy Spirit gives the light of truth to mankind. It will either harden, or cause one to fall on the mercy of God and receive the Lord Jesus Christ. Onelight was correct.

[larryt]

You have not explained what you mean scripturally by "pricks the heart" or where you come up with this idea.

Brothers, forgive me for once again butting into the middle of your discussions. Larry, you read the KJV, "pricking of the heart is biblical". The Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of men and they either reject, or accept the message being delivered.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

The same basic message led to Stephens death because men were pierced(pricked) in heart or convicted.

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Two different aspects of what happens when the Holy Spirit gives the light of truth to mankind. It will either harden, or cause one to fall on the mercy of God and receive the Lord Jesus Christ. Onelight was correct.

When I asked the question I was thinking more along the lines of Heb. 4:12 but thank you for pointing out the direct reference. The piercing of the heart happens to those that believe and also to those that do not believe. This does not make it the determining factor in why someone believes and someone does not. So the question still stands that I pose: How does a spiritually dead person do anything????

[larryt]

Were you chosen/elected before the foundation of the world? If you are not chosen then you are not His as He never knew them that claimed to be His followers.

Yes I was chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world to be transformed into His image because the scriptures say that whosoever shall call on His name shall be saved(Rom 10:13). And Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Therefore, seeing as how I received Him when the gospel revealed to me my sinfulness and my need to have my sins forgiven, they also told me that God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. I believed Him and received Him as my Savior therefore as the Romans 8 passage says, all things work together for good to those who God, to those who are the called according to His purpose and the next 2 verses being in context must be true also because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit of Truth. Therefore, being an heir with Christ I am sealed unto the day of redemption. But when the scripture says God commands all men to repent, I believe He commands all men to repent and that they are capable of obeying.

Capable yes, they have an ability to choose. Willing no, the sin nature hate God is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The key word is subject.

When He says whosoever will may come, I believe He means whosoever will may come.

Put this in context.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

First someone has to hear and secondly be thirsty and thirdly willing.

Those that do not hear( see John 10:26), that are not thirsty, and are unwilling won't take of the water of life.

That is the purpose of Christ coming into the world as I understand it, to seek and to save that which is lost. And like He said, He did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. John 6:63 it is the Spirit that makes one alive, the flesh profits nothing the words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life. This is the reason that the dead in trespass and sin can hear the good news to come to repentance because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. I believe His word is true as it is written without explaining away the words that are used in scripture.

And this is God enabling the person to respond by FIRST giving him life and changing his heart and opening his ears and giving him eyes to see.

He that has ear to hear let HIM hear. He that doesn't have ears to hear won't(will not) hear.

[larryt]

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time.

Hi, Onelight

I addressed your questions back in post 1345 page 68. Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

[allofgrace]

Capable yes, they have an ability to choose. Willing no, the sin nature hate God is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The key word is subject.

That passage is talking about those that are after the flesh and living according to the flesh not being subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be as long as they are controlled by the fleshly nature. But just as Paul will say of the Jews in chapter 10 of Romans, the reason they were cut off and the Gentiles were grafted in is because the Jews tried to establish their own righteousness according to the law instead of by faith(Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.) And in the next chapter of Romans 11 Paul says that if they do not continue in unbelief that they will be grafted back in, Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. And the same will apply to these in chapter 8 if they will repent and respond to the Holy Spirit through the word of God by faith, they will no longer be living in the flesh but by faith in the Son of God. Again, that is the reason of the gospel, Jesus came into the world to save sinners, not saints in disguise which is never shown in scripture. Every person saved was before dead in trespass and sin and they become children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, John 1:12.

Put this in context. Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

First someone has to hear and secondly be thirsty and thirdly willing.

Those that do not hear( see John 10:26), that are not thirsty, and are unwilling won't take of the water of life.

That goes without saying. Who is the Holy Spirit convicting of sin, judgment and righteousness, except sinner. And as stated in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. The scripture does not limit the whosoever thirst may come, only some Calvinist place that restriction in there. I don't see it written in my Bible, but I do see whosoever will come, take of the water of life freely.

And this is God enabling the person to respond by FIRST giving him life and changing his heart and opening his ears and giving him eyes to see.

He that has ear to hear let HIM hear. He that doesn't have ears to hear won't(will not) hear.

No where in scripture does it teach the sinner has life and a change of heart before believing, that is more reading between the lines instead of reading the print on the lines. But it is the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of the word to the sinner and guiding them in the truth, and they must receive it by faith and receive Jesus, John 1:12. Show what you said so that I can read it from scripture like you state it. Here is the scriptural way, Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Edited March 7, 2013 by allofgrace

[saved34]

That was a great post, All of Grace. That is one of the many things I disagree with Calvinism on. Regeneration does not precede faith. Larry, I would be interested in knowing where you disagree with Calvinism. You seem to hold to all the tenants of the Tulip. I would also like to add that you say a great many truths as well, but I disagree with a few things you say, and they mostly represent the Calvinist position. Either way you are my brother in Christ. Just keep in mind that those of us who disagree with the notion that God damns some men to hell by not choosing them comes from a sincere heart. The heart of care for souls. We have the love that God has given us and cringe at the thought of anyone perishing, nevertheless talking about a man or woman perishing because God destined them so. I have to believe that that doctrine is a complete misrepresentation of God and his character.