Do We REALLY Believe?

[Ovedya]

I agree with your statement 100%,the problem is OSAS and hyper grace teaches that you CAN continue in willful,habitual,unrepentant sin and still remain saved,that you CAN continue in willful,habitual,unrepentant sin and still be on your way to heaven because at one time in your life you said ''the sinners prayer''or were baptized as a child.

This is a very dangerous teaching.that deceives many to believe themselves to be saved when they are not.

But your statement was very true.

(although I dont sin EVERY SINGLE DAY,I am far from perfect)

The problem is not imperfection it is deliberate,willful,habitual,unrepentant sin from those that claim Christ as saviour.

And the teaching that that is O.K. that and all is forgiven.

I'm not sure of where I stand on OSAS, but I do know this: If you feel it teaches that you can profess to be "saved," still go out and sin all you want and still go to heaven, you are dead wrong, that is not what it teaches. Anyone that would continue to sin unrepentantly, I would have to wonder if they were actually saved. There is a big difference between saying a sinner's prayer and saying your saved, and actually being saved. The only two people who know for sure are that person and God. So to blame a doctrine that does not teach what you've said above for habitiual sin is short-sighted and false. No one that I know of teaches that willful, habitual and unrepentant sin is ok, unless it is some kind of new-age emergent doctrine. It certainly is not OSAS.

You must be way ahead of me, because I know I do things that displease the Lord daily.

It does indeed teach exactly that,that once you are saved there is nothing you can do to loose your salvation,murder,lie steal all forgive.past,present and future sins

Do you honestly believe that a genuine believer in Christ would abuse the grace which God so freely gave and go out and murder another person? Unless you can prove that's a direct result of the OSAS teaching your comments are just rhetoric.

[tsth]

Do you honestly believe that a genuine believer in Christ would abuse the grace which God so freely gave and go out and murder another person? Unless you can prove that's a direct result of the OSAS teaching your comments are just rhetoric.

Dear Ovedya,

That is EXACTLY the point of this thread! There are many people throughout this nation committing horrible offenses of violence, and sitting in prison at this very moment, BELIEVING with every bone in their body, that they will be entering into heaven, even though their thoughts are of evil and violence. They believe this because at one point they prayed a prayer, yet did not commit in heart to follow Christ Jesus. Yet, they are absolutely sure they are on their way to heaven, because someone keeps telling them that because they believe in Jesus, and prayed that prayer, they WILL be going to heaven, even though they follow the works darkness, rather than the light of Jesus Christ. I have seen these things. I know that this is from the doctrine of deception that has convinced them, that no matter how many people they may kill, or harm, they will still be allowed entrance into heaven. My point in posting the OP passages of Scriptures, is in hopes that those people who are "continuing" in the practice of these things of murder, and the others SPECIFICALLY POINTED out, will come to the understanding that they have NOT been born again, lest the desire of the heart would not have remained in the same state as an unbelieving pagan.

1 Thess 4:1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2 As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

4 They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Ephesians 4:17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. 20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[eric]

Hi Suzanne,

I'm not quite sure where you are going with this thread. You quote a couple of passages from scripture and then ask if we belieeve them, or are they the truth. It's like asking if we believe if the sky is up.

The passages you use are in the bible, so of course, the bible being the inerrant word of God, I have to say yes I believe them and yes it must be the truth. However, there are circumstances surrounding these passages that have to be explored.

You seem to be provoking a OSAS discussion, which have been thrashed and thrashed in thses forums. eg. there are circunstances when a liar will be cast into the lake of fire,but there are cicumstances that can prevent him from perishing.

Commands from God are expected to be obeyed at all costs. It is up to God as to judge whether we are obedient enough to go in the right direction. I agree that just believing Jesus says He is who He says He is, and reciting some sort of sinner's prayer, won't necessarily get you life eternal. You are only on level ground at that point. You have a mountain to climb, to prove you are sincere in you oblgation to get to the top of that mountain. A commitment is a commitment and you can't bend the rules to satify your carnal desires without being reprimanded or rebuked.

You are not free until Jesus sets you free and you won't be set free unless you live or abide in His word........He said so in John's gospel. Repent means repent permanently not spasmodically and I dn't care what some pastors say. Tell lies after your commitment, then you are back to being a liar and God is back being your judge. Ya can't have it both ways.

As Ovedjah explained a genuine believer in Christ would not abuse the grace given him

just to put God's commands to the test........I wouldn't anyway. I've been justified and I intend to stay that way.

[damo1]

damo1

well it seems to me this topic is going no were and i would like to know who has the right then to the questions asked in the very start of this topic by the op of the topic and please do not be little me or make me look the fool all due to some one seeing this to the way i would see it

ok my friend who i know who is doing time for murder is she going to suffer and go to hell because she killed a man ? my friend is a female friend who has had abuse partners al her life herroin and speed were he escape from this world and the pain she was enduring she was abused from a very young age and her mother use to alow older men to sleep with her daughter all for free alcahol and drugs my friend had no say in this as she had to do what her mother asked off her

my friend was also a wild girl and would not back down if confronted

hear is a person in a cell feeling sorry for the things she had done a chaplin rings me who use to be a worship leader in my old church and she asks me if i know this person i said yes and i said she needs all the love and support she can get the chaplin promissed me that my friend will get all the posative support as my friend is only 29yrs old know when she does come out of Jail she will be an old women and a lonley women

but praise god she is asking questions and is reading the bible and is wanting to know why Jesus died for her

i notice that the op does not respond to me but will question every one that applys to this topic and only give the thumbs up when a person agrees with the op and know comming to the very last threads on this topic do we realy belive i hear this rubish being talked about in an open public forum

that is why i said who is this topic for is it only special people who will see what is said hear to the way the op off the topic wants people to respond or will people also be allowed to say how they understand this for them selves

you were all once sinners who forgave you for the amount off times you stuffed up is any one on this last thread perfect have we got this knowledge know to were we can talk like this and say every one has fallen short and we all need to be corrected and pulled up by those who are high and all mighty ?

tell me something since only a few people are getting the thumbs up hear what do i tell my friiend do i tell my friend who is reading this bible we hold so close to our hearts to give up and dont bother reading

as she will never be forgiven for the horrible thing she did ? do i treat my friend like an out cast as leppers use to be treated like this by the so called high and holy rolers

who is grace for since sevral are saying christians will just keep doing the same thing

tel me something since every one is being asked to state weather they belive do we cry out to god do we repent before him for the way we act and the way we behave do we realy deal with what needs to be dealt with in our own churches

hay we did this hear in our church and i can tell you those that left this church long time ago are starting to come back every single person for 8 weeks cried out to god for the things that have been allowed to sneek into the church i have said this sevral times know but its like i must be a foolish person because i do not want to tap a person on the shoulder and say yes i see what you are saying and i do belive

if this question can not be answerd with out people turning this into an all out war zone i hope this topic gets clossed as one brothers topic got clossed and i hate double standards

so i hope a moderating team member pops in from time to time and checks what is being talked about hear its time we got of our high horses and deal with what needs to be dealt with in our own churches

before we go making stupid foolish state ments like this on a public forum for all who log on to read

what wittness is this showing the rest of the world

god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

[Guest]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole."

"This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner."

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12

"Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee."

"And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me." Hebrews 2:12-13

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9

Sinners will be judged accordingly,you can say you are a believe all you want if you life style denies your faith,then you will be judged justly.

Shalom On, Let's get to the meat of this.. Do YOU ever sin? Since you do (we all do) are you going to Hell because of your sins?

The problem is not imperfection it is deliberate, willful, habitual, unrepentant sin from those that claim Christ as saviour. And the teaching that that is O.K. that and all is forgiven.

Imperfections?

He Said We Said

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:10

But Who Do We Trust

"Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's." 2 Corinthians 10:7

Free, Free At Last!

"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

"And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever."

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:34-36

Believe On The Son

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son." 1 John 5:10

And The Record

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." 1 John 5:11

Or You're Dead

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12

If You Believe

You Have Eternal Life

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13

Begotten Of God

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." 1 John 5:18

By Birth By Faith By Grace

"Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:"

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:21-23

Whoever Teaches Salvation Or Sanctification By Man's Works Does Not Know The Power Of The Blood Of The Lamb

And Is In Grave Danger Of Adding Lies To God's Gospel

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1 Peter 1:18-19

We Know The OSAS Bunch Teaches Unrepentant Sinners Are Going To Eternal Hell

"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." Revelation 9:20-21

They Teach That Some Men Will Taste Of The Lord But Will Spite Out His Heavenly Gift Of Grace And Return To Dead Works

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God," Hebrews 6:1

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,"

"And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,"

"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6

They Even Believe The Bible Is Forever And True And That Salvation Comes Only Through Jesus Christ And Him Crucified

"For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." 1 Peter 1:24-25

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2

They Believe Many Men Will Try To Lord It Over God's Sheep But They Will Trust The LORD Jesus Christ To Keep Them From Falling

"So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate." Revelation 2:15

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 1:24-25

Silly Bible Believes!

Encourage God's Heritage

Love Your Brothers And Sisters

"These things I command you, that ye love one another."

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you."

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." John 15:17-19

Without Echoes Of False Condemnation

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."

"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;"

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

"That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:12-17

But With Posts Of Joy And Love

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" Ephesians 5:19

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Pilgrim7]

Suzanne, the light alway exposes the darkness because it makes apparent what many hope to keep hidden.

Why is it that so many want to ignore the difference between willful, presumptive sin and the occasional slip up or falling short sin? There is a huge difference and all the scriptures speak to it. I would hope that we all understand this. Willfull, presumptive sin is that which one does, knowing the Scriptures forbid it and doesn't feel any sorrow or remorse for it and doesn't repent and confess it. He just assumes he will be forgiven and still end up in the kingdom. This is completely contrary to Scripture.

Here is another quote from John. the Apostle of love, add this to John 3:16 and 1John 1 regarding willful presumptive sin:

1john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3:3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself (how pure?), even as he is pure.

3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

3:5 And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

3:6 Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you (alot of deception by men on this point): he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

3:9 Whosoever is born of God does not commit (willful, presumptive) sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not do righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

This too is the word of God. It is to be added to the Scriptures that state that the believer is 'justified by grace'.

Why is it that the only comeback some have is, do you ever sin? That is a bogus argument designed to avoid looking at the totality of Scripture and dealing with the plain truth that the 'believer' has been 'saved from sin' and needs to learn how to overcome sin, instead of being taught that he can continue in known sin and still ultimately enter the kingdom of heaven.

Presumptive sin is easy to recognize. It is any sin that one thinks they can continue in without repentance and confession of it as sin and the resultant battle to forsake the sin. The only comeback that one has for this type of sin is to accuse those who teach the truth of God as being 'holier than thou'. Here again we have a smokescreen to obscure the the truth that God will not pardon willfull, presumptive, non-confessed and non-repented of sin.

Such is not hyper holiness, but just a product of the Holy Spirit in leading into the holiness of God. You see God is the arbiter of Holiness, not man. It is God who has said "be holy as I am holy". Thus it is as He is Holy, which as I see it is completely holy for He sins not.

Here is the testimony of Paul, who is the champion of saved by grace:

Rom 6:13 Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.

6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid (here Paul puts the exclamation point on the issue of being under grace).

6:16 Don't you Know, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

6:17 But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

6:18 Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.

It seems that Paul understood what it means to be under grace.

If one is a believer, then they believe the totality of Scripture, they don't argue with it, or use certain verses to negate other verses that give a fuller picture of the Salvation experience. This is how God separates the wheat and the tares, through His word, all of it.

God bless all,

Dennis

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

So this is just another one of those silly OSAS agenda debates hidden in the OP? That's what this is all about. That's pretty disingenuous.

For the record, OSAS does not preach continued, unrepentant sin is acceptable and anyone who says it does is misrepresenting OSAS or using a twisted version of it.

[eric]

Well everbody on this board knows a little bit more than others, so he is right and she is wrong....no....she is right and he is wrong......no....I am right and everyonr else is wrong.

I know, I'll bring a dozen verses to show that he is right.

you do that and I will bring a dozen verses to show that he is wrong.......and so it goes on. and on.....and on,

[damo1]

damo1

instead of this topic stating do we really belive this topic should be stateing what doctrine do you hold on to is it gods living word that you hold close to your heart do you keep his commandment do you abide by the principlals jesus passed on to the disciples do you take heed to all the warnings the 7 churches in revelations were given

this is what should be the main point in this post what doctrines have people fallen for

then once that is sorted out then this topic can be talked on at the core leval were you openly say what this topic is wanting you to say

as all i am seeing hear is people hidding behind scripture verses that they are comfterbal with

jesus never hid behind the scripture passeges like i see people doing in this topic and he did not teach his disciples to do this

if you had the chance to meet the disciples and the apostle paul would you ask them do they really belive that jesus is who he says he is

when jesus picked the 12 disciples he simply said come follow me and they did its as simple as that

these 12 men took everything that christ said on board and belived that they to can do what he was doing

this is how much of an effect jesus had on the 12 disciples

and when the apostle paul was convicted and encounterd jesus he new who he was dealing with as he was blind for sevral days

man what a warped topic

god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

[Pilgrim7]

The OP sets the topic, not those who reply. All are free to reply to the topic posted or not reply, without any examination of the motives or objectives of the Poster.

It is a simple question which should require a simple answer. Do folks really believe the totality of Scripture, or do they just pay lip service to it. You see what people believe, they follow up with action. When the action does not follow, it is a legitimate question to ask as to whether they really believe what the Scripture states.

Why would anyone be afraid to state that they believe all of what Scripture says? If they believe, then why would they not do what it says? Why would they not come to the light so that they could see their defects of character and be cleansed from all iniquity?

It could only be perceived as a trap for those who say one thing and do another. If one lives what he believes, then there is no fear of the light, for it will only manifest that his deeds are in line with the Word of God.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

3:20 For every one (this word means everyone heathen or professing christian) that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

3:21 But he that does truth come to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought (have their source) in God.

No matter how hard one tries, you cannot separate works of faith from from saving faith, the 'faith that works by love'. What God has joined together, let no man put asunder, for no man can, except at his own peril. You see when God calls a man, it is to work in His vineyard. He is called to labor for God, to do the works of God, as defined in the Scriptures, all of them, not to continue laboring for His old master, for he is now the Servant of God and his fellow man.

Mt 21:28 But what do you think? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented (here we have a good description of repentance), and went.

21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father? They said to him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots (who repent and work the works of God) go into the kingdom of God before you (who profess to be believers and yet fail to do the works of God).

The believer has been set free from his bondage to sin and his old master. He is now free to follow God and His Word, he needs not to be commanded, for he loves the things of God and serves as a loving child, who delights to please his Father in all things and not out of fear. Thus we have the difference between the Old Covenant and the New. In the Old they served out of fear of death, in the New, we serve out of Love, the only difference is the motivation, is it the will of God only written on stone and parchment, or has it been written in the heart as a result of having been 'saved by grace'.

Whether one believes Scripture is not a warped topic. It is a legitimate topic which God examines when He separates the wheat from the tares. It is the warped view that many have regarding Scripture which is prompts the topic.

God Bless,

Dennis