Knowledge and Sovereignty

[Guest mcm42]

As I was thinking about some things today. I was considering God's Knowledge, specifically His forknowledge and what the extent of this knowledge is.

I suppose, before I get too involved the basic Question is this...Does God Know "or foreknow" His own actions, or does his forknowledge only go as far as His creation?

Here is what I mean. If God Knew everything He was going to do, then would He not be subject to that knowledge. That is He would be bound to what He knew was going to happen. Therefore He wouldn't be sovereign! For sovereignty Suggests Control of situations, not just knowing what will happen.

In this I began to think, What could God be capable of Doing outside His own knowledge of what He is going to do? (I know I do think too much) Therefore God would only be the sum result of His knowledge.

The same holds true for us, in a sense. If God knew I was going to type this, how could I get away from typing it? Do I have the choice to stop, if God knows beforehand that I will not! Do I have any choice at all in the Foreknowledge of God? Even better if I stopped now, which I didn't, God Forknew this act. You could stop reading but if God knows you will not stop reading, do you have any choice in the Matter? Even more-so Salvation. If he knows you will choose Him... was this before or after the choosing that he came to this knowledge? If there was ever a time he didn't know, then there was a time that he was not All-knowing. What's EVEN MORE... If He knew you would choose him beforehand, is that really choice? For you have no way of escaping that which God knows will happen? This is not so much a problem for me, but for those who believe in God's forknowing our decisions... I believe we are chosen beforehand anyway...

So for me I wonder this: Does God know everything, even what He Himself will do? Or is he limited in His knowledge of His own decisions? And If he is limited In His knowledge of His own Decisions, does that Bring into question God's Omniscience? (All-knowing "ness") Supposing He knows all of His decisions, is He now Bound to that Knowledge, making him incapable of Changing that which He knows is true?

I guess this is just something to ponder, to get everyone searching the Scriptures and coming to conclusions, I certainly don't have all the answers, but I have my veiws.

Thanks for reading, God knew you would, and if you didn't read, He knew that Too!

[Guest LadyC]

God is not limited, by anything. sovereignty, by the way, is supreme authority. it means that God has the authority to do, or NOT do, as He will. it also means that He has the right to allow us free will, which He does. Knowing the outcome doesn't mean He is going to arbitrarily force His will upon us to make the outcome what it would not have otherwise been.

[Guest mcm42]

Knowing the outcome doesn't mean He is going to arbitrarily force His will upon us to make the outcome what it would not have otherwise been.

So... according to that definition God does not intervene in a way that will change what would have happened anyway. The question I would wonder is why does he intervene at all then? Assuming his non-intervention, wouldn't change what was going to happen anyway, since he won't force His will on us...why intervene at all. Why not become a supreme spectator...

It seems to me that invervention that does not change the end result, isn't really intervention at all, for intervening would be pointless, for man would ultimatly come that same point, with or without the intervention?

Lastly, (only for examples sake) why send Christ? If some of us would Choose God on our own, for he knew this to be the case, what purpose would there be in sending Christ, for certainly some would come to God anyway. And why do we need the Spirit? If the Holy Spirit doesn't in some way change what would have happened, what real office would he hold.

Does God first look through time to see what it would be like without His help, and then act according to that! I pray not.

I don't believe this is what you meant at all LadyC, I'm only trying to ask questions to spur on the discussion both in my own mind and in the Board, thanks for your Posts, they are always seasoned with Salt, and full of wisdom

[Guest LadyC]

you sure make it sound complicated! i don't believe God IS so complicated. i believe He means what He says.

there is sin in the world. God didn't want adam and eve to sin, but He gave them a command, and gave them the freedom to choose to obey it. why? cuz God didn't want robots! He wanted us to love Him of our own accord, not His. do you really believe that God wanted them to sin? that isn't scriptural.

The Holy Spirit urges us, prompts us, intercedes for us. sometimes we struggle between our own will and God's. and sometimes we choose to follow our own emotions, commonly known as 'following our hearts', when we know it is not God's will. because if it was God's will for us to make horrific mistakes, He wouldn't have the Holy Spirit prompting us otherwise.

now, by your reasoning, if we ignore God's will and follow our own down the wrong path, then God has failed. either that, or He has intentionally set us up to prove we will fail, in some twisted sadistic game.

but if God, in His infinite wisdom, allows us free will, then it is OUR failure, not God's.

and in His infinite wisdom, He allows us to learn from the consequences of our mistakes.

as i see it, your position seems to imply that God desires for us to sin, and desires for some to go to hell.

are you a parent? i ask because God is our FATHER, and the ultimate example of how we should parent our children. we don't force our will upon our children, or they don't grow, they don't learn from their mistakes, because they would never make mistakes if we had it our way. instead, we impart wisdom to our children, we teach them right from wrong, and hope they will do the right thing. the difference is obvious... we don't know the final outcome, while God does. but we can strongly suspect an outcome based on the child's track record. that doesn't mean that we set up every situation so that the child will have no wrong choice to make, because ultimately, that would not be loving parenting, it would be absolute control.

[Guest mcm42]

... I fail to see the connection between your last post and the basic question which is about God's Knowledge...

Is God bound by his knowledge, or can he act outside of his knowledge, and does that make that knowledge wrong?

Example:

God Knows I will Be Saved, Can I then choose otherwise?

If yes: then God's knowledge was wrong

If no: My choice is inhibited by God's Knowledge

Is it really "choice" if God Knew it beforehand? For when I go to make the choice, I have only one choice, that which God knew to be the choice I would make?

[Guest LadyC]

just because God already knows what your choice will be, does not mean you don't have that choice. nor does it mean your choice is inhibited.

[Guest mcm42]

just because God already knows what your choice will be, does not mean you don't have that choice. nor does it mean your choice is inhibited.

I'm not so sure about that... hence the post!

[Guest LadyC]

let me ask you this.... do you believe that God sets us up for failure?

[serotta]

mcm42 asked:

Is it really "choice" if God Knew it beforehand? For when I go to make the choice, I have only one choice, that which God knew to be the choice I would make?

Exactly! The paradox!

But the Bible DOES tell us that God gave us free-will. I don't think it says that our "free-will" is only free up to a point.

But God has supreme authority, so He can know all things.

But if He knows what we're going to do before we do it, is it really free-will because if God already knows the outcome, how can I really be free to change it? Wooh!

First off, we are humans, and try as we might we will never understand what supreme authority is. But my interpretation borrow (only slightly) from openness theology. Since God has supreme authority, He can choose to know any and all things. But by the same rule, He can choose NOT to know any or all things. Can God know everything that we will do? Most certainly. Does He choose to? I believe that He does not. God chooses to give us free will, and make our own decisions.

[Guest mcm42]

Can God know everything that we will do? Most certainly. Does He choose to? I believe that He does not. God chooses to give us free will, and make our own decisions.

You don't think that this veiw in anyway (that is his choice to not know) hinders the idea of God being All-knowing? To me it does...

Personally I don't struggle with the free will part of it... I don't believe in anyway that we have free-will to choose, that is my stance.

My concern for myself goes a little deeper, and is in the post and that is... Is God Bound by His own Knowledge. Now maybe you would say that he could know everything He was going to do, but He chooses not to, and that is fine, I suppose.

I believe that every misunderstanding about God is based on overemphasis of ONE Quality of God and the undermining of another. Balancing these attributes is most trying on the mind, but very wonderful when one comes to a conclusion that suits the Bible, and in some way evens out the attributes accurately.

This Knowledge of God is most trying to me. I would, at this point, say that God does not know all of HIs own decisions, some will jump at the thought of God not knowing something.

They would be the same ones to Jump if I said "their are things that God Can NOT do" They would Cry "there is nothing too great for God that he can not do it" and I will wisper lightly "then let him sin!" Why! For he can not sin, it goes against His very being his nature. So too I would place this under the Knowledge of God, and maybe wrongfully so, that God knows everything in regards to that which He creates, but in regards to himself, He does not know.

Hope this encourages some more thoughts!