The Book of Life and Great White Throne judgement

[Pilgrim7]

Thanks for your reply Brother,

You wrote:

I'd disagree with you here too brother, but more on just the viewpoint of your wording. I believe there was "time" before sin as the Creation accounts in Genesis clearly give us "night and day" divisions, which we carry over to construe 24 hour periods. Without this structure our "6 day creation" is nullified.

I'd be more comfortable saying "before sin there was an endless life laid before man, an eternity for him to live.

Agreed, I didn't mean to imply that there was no division between days or months, For even on the 'New Earth' the Saved will worship on the 7th day Sabbath each week as well on the 'new moons'. I am also comfortable with the endless time concept. It is just that time as we know it and keep track of will not be needed. Thke time God has alloted for the 'sinful human race will end.

Re 10:6 And sware by him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

So if we are not to assume that there is an "eternity" of suffering for the condemned how is it that verses such as Daniel 12:2 seem to utilize a better representation of the word (H5769) for "everlasting"?

Daniel 12:2(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Several things here, for one punishment or torment is not metioned. The word for contempt is:

H1860 dra'own der-aw-one' or dera)own {day-raw-one;

• from an unused root (meaning to repulse); an object of aversion:--abhorring, contempt.
  
  
  Here again everlasting can mean for the period of time that God has alloted.
  
  H5769 `owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'};
  
  
  • the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future)
    

from the root word H5956; `alam aw-lam'

to veil from sight, i.e. conceal (literally or figuratively):--X any ways, blind,

dissembler, hide (self), secret (thing).

It could mean that they are concealed, being dead, burned up.

God bless you brother, as always I appreciate and value your input.

Dennis

[Christian]

Always a pleasure dear Brother Dennis,

Seems like we might be winding down on this one, but I am curious about something cardcaptor distilled from one of your posts. I'll address it directly afterwards.

Also, I have not forgotten about your 2 questions, I only need some time to ponder them.

And so...

Agreed, I didn't mean to imply that there was no division between days or months, For even on the 'New Earth' the Saved will worship on the 7th day Sabbath each week as well on the 'new moons'.

Scriptures supporting this viewpoint?

I am also comfortable with the endless time concept. It is just that time as we know it and keep track of will not be needed. The time God has alloted for the 'sinful human race will end.

Agreed

Several things here, for one punishment or torment is not metioned....Here again everlasting can mean for the period of time that God has alloted.

H5769 `owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'};

• the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future)
  
  
  
  • to veil from sight, i.e. conceal (literally or figuratively):--X any ways, blind,
    

dissembler, hide (self), secret (thing).

It could mean that they are concealed, being dead, burned up.

My inclusion of Daniel 12:2 was for the usage of the word everlasting, not contempt. I am curious though why sometimes in Strongs usage, the other possibilities for the words in question are not considered viable by you. (i.e)

From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

Blessings to you brother

I look forward to your response,

God Bless,

Christian

[Christian]

Greetings cardcaptor,

I only wanted to clarify a position from your post, which I do not believe is the position arrived at in the discussion between Pilgrim7 and myself.

You stated.....

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

All of the unrighteous will be destroyed by Jesus on that day also.

Then Jesus will gather us all together and separate us as sheep and goats.

Matthew 25:31-33 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

I think you are saying that you believe this to be the same day/moment, but in actuality these are two different moments that occur 1000 years apart. The blue is when Christ returns for us "pre-millenium" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), and the purple is after our 1000 years with Him, when New Jerusalem descends (post-millenium).

Peace to you

in Christ,

Christian

[Pilgrim7]

My Brother, just some quick thought, will expand on them later,

My inclusion of Daniel 12:2 was for the usage of the word everlasting, not contempt. I am curious though why sometimes in Strongs usage, the other possibilities for the words in question are not considered viable by you. (i.e) From H5956;

I do consider the other possibilities, but not when it comes to torment. There is no eternal torment, God is not an 'eternal torturer'. The wages of sin is/are death. That is the eternal component of sin and judgment, not the 'first death' for all suffer the 'first death' except those translated, and are resurrected from it. Torment is proportional to the sin and the end result of the torment is death, the 2nd death for all suffered the 'first death'.

Here Jesus speaks of the judgment and the relation of the Ten Commandments regarding it and the duration of the punishment, IE; torment:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (The last thing to be fulfilled is the judgment)

5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: (in the Judgment) but who ever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven (In the Judgment).

Here Jesus expands or magnifies the Ten Commandments:

5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven (after the Judgment).

5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

In the Judgment our adversary is not our brother, but the Law, which Jesus has expanded to cover thoughts and intents of the heart, but He seems to say that the punishment is proportional to the sin or offense, thus not coming out of the torment until all has been paid, but the end of the torment is death, not freedom.

5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

The essence of justice is equitable punishment for sin. The devil would thus suffer longer than the ignorant savage who knew not God's will. Scripture says that those who knew God's will and did it not, will suffer more.

If we don't believe this, then we need to do what the RCC did and adopt Dante's version of Hell which was pure Pagan Mythology.

Ps: Look at Isaiah 66:22-24

God Bless you my brother,

Dennis

[JesusisGod2]

consider the other possibilities, but not when it comes to torment. There is no eternal torment, God is not an 'eternal torturer'. The wages of sin is/are death. That is the eternal component of sin and judgment, not the 'first death' for all suffer the 'first death' except those translated, and are resurrected from it. Torment is proportional to the sin and the end result of the torment is death, the 2nd death for all suffered the 'first death'.

This statement (highlited in red in totally wrong) and is totally contrary to scripture. I dont have time at the moment to respond totally but will later. But I will leave you with this for now.

Rev 20

. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This says the devil is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are already, at this point they are the only ones that are there but now are joined by satan.

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

Death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire, the eternal lake of fire, an eternal place of torment (see verse 10)

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

They that are not found written in the book were cast into the lake of fire, the eternal lake of fire, where they are tormented day and night.

To say contrary is go against what the scripture says. God says this not me and I would be careful what you teach.

[Massorite]

Thank you so much for your reply. I am in an area where there is split opinions on whether any one but Christ has ascended into heaven. It is often confusing for me when hearing both opinions. I really appreciate this thread and hope to learn from it. I agree that only scripture can lead to the truth... scripture backing up scripture.

I will look for the older thread and thank you again. Willow99

Willow99,

Greetings to you,and God Bless you for your honest pursuit of His truth. Your situation is not an unfamiliar one to me as I too had often found myself stuck between two (or more) very "rational" views when studying, presented by those who would claim to have the support of the Scriptures behind them. As is obvious in these situations, someone must be right and someone is wrong, if they oppose each other they cannot both be right. (This goes against what is called the "Law of Non-Contradiction" which states: It is not possible that something can be both true, and not true at the same time and in the same context.)

Fortunately for us, we have the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures to guide us into all truth, apart from what "man's" opinions about their "translation" or "real meaning" might be. Quite often, things like denominational blindness, artistic license, or self proclaimed "prophet" or "instructor" status that drives these people to adamantly defend their views. Frustration with their inconsistencies is what began my quest for pure Biblical truth, and it started with pulling away from the "teachings" of others on the Bible. I then started examining of the actual words used (Strongs), their usage in context, and the background of the books in the Bible containing them. I continue to learn on a daily basis, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and maintain a non-denominational viewpoint for clarity.

As you may have noticed here in our discussion format, my brothers (and sisters), and I insist on scripture backing up scripture, scripture interpreting scripture. We prefer to present scripture always,whenever possible, to illustrate our points, and just don't take the conversations off into varied speculations and theories based on conjecture. These do no one any good and usually end up causing more strife than is tolerable. So pull up a chair and open your Bible and get comfortable...it's great to have you here with us.

Now regarding your statement above...

As I have already told you our reasoning on Moses, and the reasons why the Scriptures seem to imply him being there (heaven). There are only two other concrete examples of someone else being there that I am aware of, and they would be Enoch, and Elijah.

Genesis 5:24

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God

2 Kings 2:11

(11) And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

So judging by those scriptures I think we can safely, and correctly say that there are at least two men other than Jesus we know to be there. What do you think?

Blessings to you sister,

His faithful servant,

Christian

Indeed our situations do seem to be connected. I would have to agree with you on Enoch and Elijah. I too discovered through study that many beliefs being preached didn't correspond with the Word. I began praying for answers and digging for Truth. Many things I believe the Lord has revealed to me but on this I eagerly look forward to any scripture that will prove which view is right.

While studying I found a scripture that I thought settled it in my mind but I find I still am not satisfied.

What do you make of this, dear Christian?

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

God Bless,

Willow99

The word of God says that David has not ascended because he has not. He is in the bosom of Abraham which is in the lower reaches of the earth and is the same place were Lazarus and the thief are.

[Christian]

JesusisGod2,

We addressed this area of your concern in this thread some posts ago,

I'm including the post from Pilgrim7 below so you can catch up to where we are in the discussion on it.

-C-

consider the other possibilities, but not when it comes to torment. There is no eternal torment, God is not an 'eternal torturer'. The wages of sin is/are death. That is the eternal component of sin and judgment, not the 'first death' for all suffer the 'first death' except those translated, and are resurrected from it. Torment is proportional to the sin and the end result of the torment is death, the 2nd death for all suffered the 'first death'.

This statement (highlited in red in totally wrong) and is totally contrary to scripture. I dont have time at the moment to respond totally but will later. But I will leave you with this for now.

Revelation 20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The problem lies in the translation and understanding of the term forever and ever. The word means an age or period of time. It does not mean eternity, although many say it does. This can be pr oven without a doubt by the Scriptures. The terms use here 'aeon of aeon' means 'ages of ages' denoting completeness of time. As we know. eternity has no time, thus cannot be related to periods of time. Before sin, there was no time, there was only eternity, endless existence. When sin entered, death entered and time began, in order to deal with sin. Thus a day of judgment was set to deal with the sin and once again enter into eternity.

There are only states of existence which are eternal, life and death. After the end of time, each will be in one of the two states, either alive for all eternity or dead for all eternity. The punishment and death of the wicked takes place before or at the End of time, and thus sin has been dealt with, Satan, the beast, the wicked are all tormented in the 'Lake of Fire' proportional to their guilt, and suffer the second death.

These are complex subjects and difficult to understand. It would require another thread to deal with them properly. We had a topic on this is which we went into this in great detail, but it was closed. Here is the reason, and the Scriptural proof that I spoke of earlier, but first I pose two questions, which to date no one has been able to answer.

Question #1:

If Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with 'Eternal Fire' and therefore suffer eternally, why are the people and the city not still burning today?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Question #2:

If Jesus died for our sins, which He did, and took our punishment for sin, which He did, then why is He not still suffering in 'eternal fire' as we would have to do if He had not taken it for us?. What did He endure for us? He died for us. He suffered torment for us, but not eternally, but for the time prescribed by God, for just before He died, He said 'it is finished', the price has been paid.

You see, we are in agreement again, it is good to question.

I have an inquiring mind and do not just accept what I am told, but search all I can to see just 'what is truth'. As to date I have not found any who could answer the above questions without an enormous amount of 'theological gymnastics'. Any answer has to harmonize with the above.

Whenever I have a question as to the meaning of Scripture, I research all I can, pray for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, and He always leads me to the Word of God and to the example of Jesus. All truth can be found here.

God Bless you my brother in Christ,

Dennis

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Christian,

I have read this in the earlier post as I have been following most of it but responding sparingly as I enjoy seeing others insight, but I have seen it posted again in the post of which I felt I must respond to.

There is no eternal torment,

This is quite contrary to the teachings of God. If there is no punishment, then why the judgement? There are some who would say, well if I perish and never to remember or be remembered, then why quit my wicked ways? after all after the judgement then I will be thrown into the lake of fire and it isnt eternal, sure but its not forever so.......

Jesus taught very much about eternal damnation and that by the torment of unquechable fire.

Matt 3

12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[Willow99]

Indeed our situations do seem to be connected. I would have to agree with you on Enoch and Elijah. I too discovered through study that many beliefs being preached didn't correspond with the Word. I began praying for answers and digging for Truth. Many things I believe the Lord has revealed to me but on this I eagerly look forward to any scripture that will prove which view is right.

While studying I found a scripture that I thought settled it in my mind but I find I still am not satisfied.

What do you make of this, dear Christian?

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

God Bless,Willow99

Greetings to you Willow99,

We need to put this in context so we might shed the proper light on the verses in question.

In this unfolding scene at Pentescost (Acts2:1-41), Peter courageously begins defending those who had just received the Holy Spirit and were speaking in tongues (every man there, no matter where they were from heard them speak in his own language). He confronts the skeptical onlookers who were mocking them and accusing them of being drunk, explaining that this was instead the proof of both the fulfilling of the scripture, and the fruit of Christ's resurrection and ascension. As these men, assumed to be the scribes, Pharisees, and chief priests of the local area, stand mocking them, Peter begins his recitations of Old Testament scripture pointing to this very moment. (It is important to note here that those whom he is confronting do not believe Christ was the Messiah, or that He has been resurrected and ascended).

In Acts 2:17 Peter begins this by quoting Joel 2:28;

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And then he goes on to start referencing the Psalms of David, the very patriarch whom these men revere highly.

His reasoning is to show them that David himself was speaking of Christ in these verses.

In Acts 2:29 Peter establishes that indeed David has not risen (*see also note below)

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Nobody ever pretended that David had risen, and so therefore he could not be speaking of himself in Psalm 16:10, that he should not see corruption; because obviously he(David)did see corruption.

Psalm 16:10, For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

All of Israel believed that the Messiah was to be the Son of David, that is, by David's "human" nature. But according to the Spirit and by his "divine" nature, he was in actuality to be David's Lord, not his son. God had sworn to David that the Messiah that was promised to his fathers, would be His "Son" and successor, which David kept in view always while penning his psalms. And so only by prophetic, Holy inspiration could David have written what he did, and so since he was not speaking of himself, he was speaking about Jesus.

Thus, when Peter arrives at Acts 2:34 he has established this fact that it was indeed Jesus that was being prophecied and spoken about, by the fulfillment of the very Psalm verses he was quoting.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

In conclusion, by what scripture tells us we have no verse "proof" that David is indeed in heaven.

And the "Lord said unto my Lord" spoken of in this verse is God speaking to Jesus.

Hope that helps,

Blessings to you my dear sister in Christ,

His faithful servant,

Christian

(*Side note from above: Paul used this same position in speaking to those in the synagogue at Antioch in Pisidia Acts 13:14-37,

verses 35-37 making this same point for him)

Acts 13:35-37

(35) Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

(36) For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

(37) But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

I'm not sure which direction we are going here with David. I'm assuming that if David has not ascended into heaven then none of the others have either except the two noted in scripture; including those who presently die like a loved one, friend, etc.

The popular view that is preached that a Christian goes directly to heaven at death and continues life in an eternal body has to be wrong. Do we have proof that they are even in a conscious state? Whether in heaven or paradise?

Thank you so much for your input.

Willow99

[Willow99]

Thank you so much for your reply. I am in an area where there is split opinions on whether any one but Christ has ascended into heaven. It is often confusing for me when hearing both opinions. I really appreciate this thread and hope to learn from it. I agree that only scripture can lead to the truth... scripture backing up scripture.

I will look for the older thread and thank you again. Willow99

Willow99,

Greetings to you,and God Bless you for your honest pursuit of His truth. Your situation is not an unfamiliar one to me as I too had often found myself stuck between two (or more) very "rational" views when studying, presented by those who would claim to have the support of the Scriptures behind them. As is obvious in these situations, someone must be right and someone is wrong, if they oppose each other they cannot both be right. (This goes against what is called the "Law of Non-Contradiction" which states: It is not possible that something can be both true, and not true at the same time and in the same context.)

Fortunately for us, we have the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures to guide us into all truth, apart from what "man's" opinions about their "translation" or "real meaning" might be. Quite often, things like denominational blindness, artistic license, or self proclaimed "prophet" or "instructor" status that drives these people to adamantly defend their views. Frustration with their inconsistencies is what began my quest for pure Biblical truth, and it started with pulling away from the "teachings" of others on the Bible. I then started examining of the actual words used (Strongs), their usage in context, and the background of the books in the Bible containing them. I continue to learn on a daily basis, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and maintain a non-denominational viewpoint for clarity.

As you may have noticed here in our discussion format, my brothers (and sisters), and I insist on scripture backing up scripture, scripture interpreting scripture. We prefer to present scripture always,whenever possible, to illustrate our points, and just don't take the conversations off into varied speculations and theories based on conjecture. These do no one any good and usually end up causing more strife than is tolerable. So pull up a chair and open your Bible and get comfortable...it's great to have you here with us.

Now regarding your statement above...

As I have already told you our reasoning on Moses, and the reasons why the Scriptures seem to imply him being there (heaven). There are only two other concrete examples of someone else being there that I am aware of, and they would be Enoch, and Elijah.

Genesis 5:24

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God

2 Kings 2:11

(11) And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

So judging by those scriptures I think we can safely, and correctly say that there are at least two men other than Jesus we know to be there. What do you think?

Blessings to you sister,

His faithful servant,

Christian

Indeed our situations do seem to be connected. I would have to agree with you on Enoch and Elijah. I too discovered through study that many beliefs being preached didn't correspond with the Word. I began praying for answers and digging for Truth. Many things I believe the Lord has revealed to me but on this I eagerly look forward to any scripture that will prove which view is right.

While studying I found a scripture that I thought settled it in my mind but I find I still am not satisfied.

What do you make of this, dear Christian?

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

God Bless,

Willow99

The word of God says that David has not ascended because he has not. He is in the bosom of Abraham which is in the lower reaches of the earth and is the same place were Lazarus and the thief are.

Thank you for your reply. Do you believe the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable - a foretelling of what will come to pass?

God Bless,

Willow99