I am going to try this one more time

[HopesDaughter]

Might I also add stick to the topic and discuss the ideas and not use personal attacks, name calling or any other devirsionary tatics. I know this is a challange but it can be done. Also try not to avoid the evidence and reasoning from people that is provided when discussing this topic.

Now, why do atheists assume naturalism is the only way we can explain how we got here? I would like to hear from atheists not self professed Christians. Thanks.

Edited January 16, 2008 by HopesDaughter

[HopesDaughter]

Might I also add stick to the topic and discuss the ideas and not use personal attacks, name calling or any other devirsionary tatics. I know this is a challange but it can be done. Also try not to avoid the evidence and reasoning from people that is provided when discussing this topic.

Now, why do atheists assume naturalism is the only way we can explain how we got here? I would like to hear from atheists not self professed Christians. Thanks.

How about an agnostic?

If this is how you interprete your world, agnostics are fine. I just want to limit Christians or "Christians" other than myself from the conversation.

Basically I am abidiing by the limits of this forum "Faith versus Science". From my perspective 'real' science makes assumptions and then tests or makes observations to see whether these assumptions are true or false. Please correct me if I am wrong

Edited January 16, 2008 by HopesDaughter

[Hunterpoet]

I'm trying to figure out why you posted a topic on a christian web-site looking for atheists??????

[The Lorax]

I just want to limit Christians or "Christians" other than myself from the conversation. Basically I am abidiing by the limits of this forum "Faith versus Science".

What rules exactly are you abiding by? I thought this forum was for believers and non-believers to talk with one another.

From my perspective 'real' science makes assumptions and then tests or makes observations to see whether these assumptions are true or false.

Not always. Even unmistakably "real" sciences like physics make a few fundamental assumptions that can't be tested. For instance, physicists assume the particles we've observed in our neck of the universe behave the same everywhere in the universe, even in the parts we won't ever see. They assume all cosmological constants (like the magnitude of gravity, the speed of light, etc) are constant across all space and all time, and this of course can't be proved. It is commonplace for scientists to *project* observations onto the rest of the universe and these prjojections can't be tested exhaustively. Some assumptions, though untestable, are considered justified. It depends on the nature and implications of the assumption.

Now I know I shouldn't talk, being a Christian, but I'm wondering why your question is aimed specifically at atheists, HopesDaughter?

[HopesDaughter]

'

Hopes Daughter= From my perspective 'real' science makes assumptions and then tests or makes observations to see whether these assumptions are true or false.

[quote name='The Lorax' date='Jan 16 2008, 07:48 PM' post='1085579'

Not always. Even unmistakably "real" sciences like physics make a few fundamental assumptions that can't be tested. For instance, physicists assume the particles we've observed in our neck of the universe behave the same everywhere in the universe, even in the parts we won't ever see. They assume all cosmological constants (like the magnitude of gravity, the speed of light, etc) are constant across all space and all time, and this of course can't be proved. It is commonplace for scientists to *project* observations onto the rest of the universe and these prjojections can't be tested exhaustively. Some assumptions, though untestable, are considered justified. It depends on the nature and implications of the assumption.

Now I know I shouldn't talk, being a Christian, but I'm wondering why your question is aimed specifically at atheists, HopesDaughter?

Thank you for explaining. What you have written makes perfect sense because we live in an ordered universe where, if we can ascertain certain constant physical laws about that universe, such as magnatude of gravity, those laws would have to pertain to all the universe or we could not comprehend them. Does this sound reasonable to you? So here we operate on faith? Correct?

Where do you believe these laws came from? Just curious.

To answer your question atheists who call themselves atheists on this thread will be telling the truth. The Christians, don

Edited January 17, 2008 by HopesDaughter

[The Lorax]

Thank you for explaining. What you have written makes perfect sense because we live in an ordered universe where, if we can ascertain certain constant physical laws about that universe, such as magnatude of gravity, those laws would have to pertain to all the universe or we could not comprehend them. Does this sound reasonable to you? So here we operate on faith? Correct?

Sure. Science is faith-based in a few limited respects. Of course, almost every intellectual endeavor is somewhat faith-based. Those that aren't, like math and logic, are purely abstract. Making any kind of generalization about the world usually requires a small leap of faith in the forum of background assumptions.

Where do you believe these laws came from? Just curious.

I'm tempted to say God. He made Creation, after all, so it seems reasonable to assume He created the laws the govern it.

To answer your question atheists who call themselves atheists on this thread will be telling the truth. The Christians, don’t mean this badly, but I don’t know where they are coming from.

Hmm. OK.

[HopesDaughter]

Thank you for explaining. What you have written makes perfect sense because we live in an ordered universe where, if we can ascertain certain constant physical laws about that universe, such as magnatude of gravity, those laws would have to pertain to all the universe or we could not comprehend them. Does this sound reasonable to you? So here we operate on faith? Correct?

Sure. Science is faith-based in a few limited respects. Of course, almost every intellectual endeavor is somewhat faith-based. Those that aren't, like math and logic, are purely abstract. Making any kind of generalization about the world usually requires a small leap of faith in the forum of background assumptions.

Where do you believe these laws came from? Just curious.

I'm tempted to say God. He made Creation, after all, so it seems reasonable to assume He created the laws the govern it.

To answer your question atheists who call themselves atheists on this thread will be telling the truth. The Christians, don

[The Lorax]

So why is it so hard to get atheists just to admit what you so plainly and easily wrote?

You're probably referring to my admission that science is necessarily somewhat faith-based. Well, I guess atheists would resist that because they don't want science to be taken with a grain of salt. They don't like the word "faith" because it implies something religious, though it shouldn't necessarily. Almost everything we think and do involves faith of some sort. Atheists profess to stick to reason and while they might do it better than the young Earth crowd not everything is a matter of logic; you need some synthetic starting point and some non-axiomatic principles to guide you.

[HopesDaughter]

So why is it so hard to get atheists just to admit what you so plainly and easily wrote?

You're probably referring to my admission that science is necessarily somewhat faith-based. Well, I guess atheists would resist that because they don't want science to be taken with a grain of salt. They don't like the word "faith" because it implies something religious, though it shouldn't necessarily. Almost everything we think and do involves faith of some sort. Atheists profess to stick to reason and while they might do it better than the young Earth crowd not everything is a matter of logic; you need some synthetic starting point and some non-axiomatic principles to guide you.

Well don't atheists assume that all there is to life is matter and then look for that evidence? I mean they don't approach science with the attitude there is a designer or God if I am understanding you. So really they are not following the truth where it might necessarily lead. Is this science or religion? I pretty much figured this out by reason and it ain't nothing new. Athiests don't want to play by the rules of science. As I stated on an earlier thread Molecular biology has proven Darwinism is false.

[Guest Biblicist]

1 John 1

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the TRUTH is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.