followerofjesus Posted May 21, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,013 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2004 He became sin in order for it to be destroyed. Men could not uphold the strict laws of God. The ultimate sacrifice was granted by his son w/ whom he was well pleased as he stated from the clouds in the presence of a congregation w/ John the Baptist. This was done to save sinful men from hell w/ grace,forgiveness, & love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted May 21, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2004 I can understand some of the arguments against Islam because of what has been done in the name of Islam...not by a few wayward Moslems that are not representative of the whole...but by Millions of Moslems that are very vocal in their upholding the virtues and judgments of Allah....and seek to impose them as speedily as possible upon the whole world. Two things strike me. 1. The US vs Islam...The US may number a fair quantity of Christians within its ranks...but mainly the US is perceived by the Eastern countries as being totally morally bankrupt full of homosexuality,pornography,prostitutes,rape,incest,drug-addiction,fascination with the Occult,lack of family values,and given to self gratification and the pursual of riches at all costs...This is hardly surprising because this is exactly what is displayed in everybodys house day in and day out on TV...and now with the advent of the internet a deeper degree of filth and corruption is available to children and parents in the privacy of their home. So when Moslems unite under the banner of Islam that can point to the deficiencies of the West in particular the US...and promote the seeming purity of the Koran and teachings of Mohammed..it is fairly attractive. 2. I have yet to hear of any Islamic group rising up in defence of the millions of innocent people many of them Christians that have recently been systematically killed by enthusiastic followers of Islam..whether Sunni,Shia or any other faction...all I seem to hear is the odd lone voice of few peace-loving Moslems ,such as Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, that are out on a complete limb who protest too much that this violence is not the way of Allah...and that true Moslems would not do such things...my obvious question is...why don't we hear a strong condemnation of these un-Moslem acts...by those that consider themselves true Moslems?...especially the suicide bombings in Iraq and Israel! One thing I have noticed is that recently there have been many thousands of Moslems turning to Christ...many witnessing the L-rd appearing to them in a personal and miraculous way. I spoke to a man the other day who had been a Moslem for 60 years...but suddenly where Islam could not meet his needs...out of desperation he called out to Jesus and was changed so much...that when he returned to his home and his wife...she was astonished by the look of his face..and she rushed off to the place where someone had introduced him to the Saviour and she was wonderfully changed as well...speaking to him and seeing the reality of the Holy Spirit beaming out of him was lovely..Our G-d is an awesome G-d who loves Moslems and wants to break into their lives with His love and His truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 If the Muslims want us to believe that they are all about peace and stuff like that, then let them prove it. I am tired of their canards and endless verbal defense of their "religion." If they are about peace then they need to hand over every known Muslim terrorist to us, for prosecution and execution. They need to join forces with the US and Israel and wipe out Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, Tanzim, AlQueda, The PFLP, the Palestinian Authority and any other terrorist org I failed to mention. They need to help us cleanse the earth. As it stands, they are silent when Arab/Muslim terrorists strike, and I really see that as a stamp of approval. I will not listen to what they say, until Isee them destroy the terrorists in their midst. Until they actually get off their butts and do something their "peace" is a fraud, and they should not be trusted or listened to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluesun Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 (edited) JohnS I understand what you are saying. I personally have difficulty accepting the notion of Trinity and of Original Sin for different reasons. But that's just my personal feeling. thank you for your wishes (exams). until now they went o.k. thank you. :-) FoolowerofJesus what is the definition of "sinful man"? i suppose it doesn't include 'non-believers'. what is the purpose of God revealing to mankind certain 'rules of behaviour' if not to test mankind? "My mercy prevails over My wrath" God has made known to mankind Botz what has been done in the name of Islam how does one judge a religion? by its content or by the behaviour of some of it's adherents, even if that particular behaviour is in violation of the teachingsof that particular religion? islam prohibits suicide (killings), torture, destruction of churches/synagogues, wars of aggression etc.....the same as christianity prohibits homosexuality , pedophelia, killing of innocents (reference being made to crusades), , torture (reference to iraq abu ghraib prison) etc. (all also islam). i do not judge christianity by the actions of some christians, but on its teachings, both of which can be worlds apart when considering behaviour and rethoric of some christians. the same is true with muslims and jews and hindus etc. (1)US society, as i understand, is split on issues such as abortion, gay marriage etc. i've heard many american christians saying "please don't judge us on....". i don't view american society just as one monolith...as in every society, there are different opinions on all kinds of issues. (2)media coverage is the key. example: 9/11. all the islamic organisations in USA condemned the vicious attack, supposedly in the "name of islam" (however, islam prohibits killing of innocent civilians, noncombatants, and any unprovoked attacks). so did all the major islamic clerics (iran, saudi, egypt etc.). The vast majority of muslims see osama bin laden as misguided, as an extremist so to speak. the beheading of mr. berg violated the principles of islam (it's not only me saying this, also all my muslim friends, i've also read outrage of muslims of what happened in newspapers in forms of letters and reporters writing, e.g. see "the independent" newspaper, uk). but where is the media coverage of all this? the british council of muslims called on all british muslims to be vigilant against any criminal elements within their mosques and to fully cooperate with the police, if they should suspect anything. an imam from australia told cnn that he was fully cooperating with and informing australian immigration officials and police (this cooperation came about from his initiative) just in case if he had some concerns about some people possibly being criminal/planning terrorist attack (he also said that he knows who is/was new to the country...but that would be too much to write now) where is the media coverage? the media quite naturally almost exclusively (over)reports 'sensational' stories. example: here in england, there was a famous 'imam' who preached hatred against the 'West' (never mind that he wasn't even educated to be an imam)...highlighting one bad case...but no reports of other mosques, where no such things have been preached (i remember reading a letter in a newpaper, where a muslim resident near where the 'imam' preached complained that the local mosque was taken away from the muslim community by these few radicals (misled).) regards, marianne Edited May 22, 2004 by bluesun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tako Posted May 22, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 140 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2004 Muslims, Read the BIBLE and you might see something in a different light, for instance. LOVE rules over all the commandments, IF YOU DON'T HAVE LOVE YOU HAVE NOTHING, so says the bible Interesting??? See for yourself don't take my word for it. I know there are good Muslims decent people in IRAQ and elsewhere, I just hope to see more Muslims stand up for what is Right and Voice it, America needs to see and hear this. All this in LOVE .....TAKO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluesun Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Hallo tako, i have read the bible on several occasions. i am from a christian/atheist background (i.e. none of my family members are muslim. they are either christian or atheist). the first bible i've read was a children's bible at the age of 9. you are right, christianity and the bible teach love, but so does islam and the quran and judaism (because all the prophets have been sent by the one and only GOD). many muslims do actually voice their concerns and opposition to what is being done in the name of their religion, opposition to their religion being hijacked, albeit most of this being either privately in discussions with fellow muslims/friends or in media, which has got less circulation (eg muslim media), or letters to newspapers. all the major islamic centers of the USA, the arab world, Iran etc. have condemned the 9/11 attack, for instance. please have a short look at this website to see for yourself, thank you. http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm "Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs", Shaykh Hamza Yusuf. "Bin Laden's Violence is a heresy against Islam", Abdul Hakim Murad *Sheikh Mohammed Sayyed al-Tantawi of Al-Azhar, the highest institution in Sunni Islam, warned that those who attack innocent people will be punished by Allah, in his weekly sermon to thousands of worshippers in Cairo. "Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the Day of Judgment," the moderate Sheikh Tantawi said at Al-Azhar mosque. "It's not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack," he said. "It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to Praise those who kill innocent people." Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan. "Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts." Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama,) "The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)." fatwa, signed by: Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar) Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council In Iran, Tehran's main soccer stadium observed an unprecedented minute's silence in sympathy with the victims ...................... regards, marianne :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted May 22, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2004 Marianne. I was a little surprised that you quoted me slightly out of context...what I originally said was. I can understand some of the arguments against Islam because of what has been done in the name of Islam...not by a few wayward Moslems that are not representative of the whole...but by Millions of Moslems that are very vocal in their upholding the virtues and judgments of Allah....and seek to impose them as speedily as possible upon the whole world. I appreciated though that you took the time to answer....my whole point was that there are comparatively few measured Islamic voices raised against the tidal wave of hatred that is systematically sweeping the Islamic nations and peoples in their feelings towards the West,the US and especially Israel. Therefore it is not without reason that Islam in the West is perceived by the fruits of its labours...produced not by some slim unrepresentative minority...but by the vast majority of those that happily endorse their actions with the name of Allah on their lips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 23, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 193 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/28/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/20/1965 Share Posted May 23, 2004 JohnS I understand what you are saying. I personally have difficulty accepting the notion of Trinity and of Original Sin for different reasons. But that's just my personal feeling. Marianne I am leaving for a few days for a much-needed vacation. I will leave you with a couple of articles to ponder. First, on original sin: You will read of it in the book of Genesis. It was doubtless a fairer place than we have ever seen and much more marvelous for beauty than we can imagine. It was full of all manner of delights, a fruitful spot wherein the man who was set to keep it would have no need to toil, but would find it a happy and refreshing exercise to train the luxurious plants. No sweat was ever seen upon his happy brow, for he cultivated a virgin soil. Abundance of luscious fruits ministered to his necessities. He could stretch himself upon soft couches of moss, and no inclemencies of weather disturbed his repose. No winter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
followerofjesus Posted May 25, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,013 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2004 Blue Sun, FoolowerofJesus what is the definition of "sinful man"? i suppose it doesn't include 'non-believers'. We are all born w/ a sinful nature of man; believers ,non-believers, whatever your choice that has been made. With the grace of God our sins may be forgiven by our faith. what is the purpose of God revealing to mankind certain 'rules of behaviour' if not to test mankind? Do you understand the Law? The ten commandments? Men could not live up to keeping these laws & still don't today due to the sinful nature of man. "My mercy prevails over My wrath" God has made known to mankind This is fine if we have a repentant heart & walk towards the light rather than cower towards darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tako Posted May 25, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 140 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2004 Hi Marianne, Thanks for the reply, It verifies my feeling for the muslims that are not getting a fair shake from the Media. I know the Media is very political and very bias and powerful and cannot be trusted fully. Also thanks for giving some of your background,now I can understand where your coming from. Please continue to give us more insight of the muslim point of view. Just to give some of my backgound, I've been a christian for about 20 years studied the bible quite a bit, and am convicted and convinced historicly,scientificly,propheticly,and spiritlually that the bible is true,. OK, thats enough about me. So, keep us informed, so we don't get a skewed point of view. talk to you latter, TAKO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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