Denominations

[Phil.2:12]

I totally agree that the Holy Spirit will lead us to Truth.

At this point though I don't know what to say except that we should all stay committed to the Word of God at least then we will all have that as a starting point even when we disagree. Consider the three men we spoke of earlier. Luther, Calvin and Spurgan, which was led by the Holy Spirit? They all disagreed on some big issues.

But I for example have no desire for "new" doctrines. The Word of God has been opened since Luther, what new things would now appear? I am glad you are happy in your church, but you are doing exactly what I said people do, you see of course I believe the exact same thing about my congregation as I know Shilo does as I know Vickylyn does and onelight and so on, which is why we all belong. Do you see what I am getting at? I am not trying to be contentious with you I am sincerely happy for your path in Christ

As I am for the path that seems right for you.

However you slice the cake, it all comes back to a matter of spiritual maturity, a subject which seems to be avoided like the plague in this thread by most posters. Most Christians feel that they are already mature in the Lord, after all, they've been a Christian for the better part of their lives. However, there is simply no corollary between physical maturation and spiritual maturation as some who are quite mature physically can be very immature spiritually in spite of a lifetime spent in a denomination. On the other hand, some can be very mature spiritually and yet be very young in age and in time spent within a denomination. Until we look at this spiritually mature issue from God's viewpoint, rather than from our human viewpoint, we will never be able to achieve the spiritual maturity that will be demanded of us when we finally see the Lamb of God coming for His bride. That means that in the end time, there will be a great falling away to the point that one may not be comfortable with their current position within the Body of Christ.

It seems to me that the issue of spiritual maturity, especially the lack of it, within the Body of Christ is an area that needs a lot more attention to be paid to it by the members of the Body of Christ. Consider, if you will, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams recent remarks on the ressurection of Jesus where he stated that the belief in the physical ressurection of Jesus is not essential to being a Christian. It seems to me that there needs to be a lot of Body work done by the Holy Spirit in order to get the Body of Christ into the shape that our Heavenly Father wants it to be in when Jesus comes again.

I'm not throwing any aspersions on anyone's belief system, but I also recognize that there is error and false doctrine in every man-made belief system there is. There is also great truth to be found in some of these belief systems, however none of them (being man-made) is completely true and devoid of any false doctrine or other error. Failure to recognize that your own denomination may have error in it means that you will keep blindly accepting anything that Headquarters churns out, never seriously questioning it in light of what Scripture has to say on the subject. That is a decidedly spiritually immature way to view the Scriptural viewpoint on any subject, taking the denominational stance over the Scriptural stance without question.

[OneLight]

There is nothing that man can do to correct this issue except to allow the Holy Spirit to show us where we are wrong. This can only be done by using the tools we have for growth. Studying the word as the Spirit teaches us, Worshiping God in spirit and truth, Fasting and Praying. As we use these tools to become spiritually closer to God, His Spirit will open our "spiritual eyes" so we can see our errors, which we all have. When we see these errors, we have a choice to make ... allow the Spirit to correct our hearts and minds or continue on the same path we had been walking down. The Christian that seeks maturity will choose the former. This is not a denominational teaching, but a personal one between "God and I".

You see, there is not correct denomination. No one man can say he has the complete truth. Truth is found in the Holy Spirit that speaks what He hears from the Father, as He teaches us. God is the only one who knows the truth. It has to come from Him, not man. Doesn't the Holy Spirit convict us of sin? He, through His teaching of the word, will bring the word to life when He fulfills, in us, the following scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The scripture speaks singularly, using the word man, not men. This is between "God and I". By letting Him work in us individually, He will accomplish His plan in changing the Body, one at a time.

You are all correct when you say that no man has the truth. We don't. That no one denomination is correct. It is not. There is no one man who is better then another, we all have errors in our beliefs. We all need to allow the Spirit to correct us from the inside out, so that we know, in our hearts and minds, that we are following Him as He leads. The closer we are with Christ, the louder we here His voice as He works the scripture of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 in us. That is how unity will happen.

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm not throwing any aspersions on anyone's belief system, but I also recognize that there is error and false doctrine in every man-made belief system there is. There is also great truth to be found in some of these belief systems, however none of them (being man-made) is completely true and devoid of any false doctrine or other error. Failure to recognize that your own denomination may have error in it means that you will keep blindly accepting anything that Headquarters churns out, never seriously questioning it in light of what Scripture has to say on the subject. That is a decidedly spiritually immature way to view the Scriptural viewpoint on any subject, taking the denominational stance over the Scriptural stance without question.

I don't know of anyone that just believes right down the line of what their denomination teaches and do not think for themselves at all. Almost everyone will disagree with some point or another with their pastor or denom.

The problem is that everyone thinks they are being led by the Spirit in their reading of the word, so what would one use to convince someone that their take on the word is wrong? or that their denom's take on the word is wrong? and what would one use to show they have the right to point out what is wrong about a particular denom.?

[Massorite]

There is nothing that man can do to correct this issue except to allow the Holy Spirit to show us where we are wrong. This can only be done by using the tools we have for growth. Studying the word as the Spirit teaches us, Worshiping God in spirit and truth, Fasting and Praying. As we use these tools to become spiritually closer to God, His Spirit will open our "spiritual eyes" so we can see our errors, which we all have. When we see these errors, we have a choice to make ... allow the Spirit to correct our hearts and minds or continue on the same path we had been walking down. The Christian that seeks maturity will choose the former. This is not a denominational teaching, but a personal one between "God and I".

You see, there is not correct denomination. No one man can say he has the complete truth. Truth is found in the Holy Spirit that speaks what He hears from the Father, as He teaches us. God is the only one who knows the truth. It has to come from Him, not man. Doesn't the Holy Spirit convict us of sin? He, through His teaching of the word, will bring the word to life when He fulfills, in us, the following scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The scripture speaks singularly, using the word man, not men. This is between "God and I". By letting Him work in us individually, He will accomplish His plan in changing the Body, one at a time.

You are all correct when you say that no man has the truth. We don't. That no one denomination is correct. It is not. There is no one man who is better then another, we all have errors in our beliefs. We all need to allow the Spirit to correct us from the inside out, so that we know, in our hearts and minds, that we are following Him as He leads. The closer we are with Christ, the louder we here His voice as He works the scripture of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 in us. That is how unity will happen.

Good preaching Onelight.

[backontrack]

1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1 Corinthians 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Comparison:

There seems to be contentions among the denominations.

Now this I say, that every one of you says, I am of Martin Luther (Lutheran); and I of John Calvin (Presbyterian); and I of John Wesley (Methodist); and I of Christ.

Is Christ devided? Was Martin Luther crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Luther?

I think you should be able to see what I am trying to say here. The scriptures seem to show that denominationalism is not correct.

I went to a Luthern Church two weeks ago and they had communion and they would not allow me to partake of it , because I was not a member. I went away in tears because they did not allow part of the body of Christ me to partake of this wonderful event. Who will be held guilty of this?

[Smalcald]

Do you believe that the blood of Christ is present in the wine along with the wine itself?

[Thaddaeus]

to all,

So the question is how do you go about convincing someone in a particular denomination that something they believe is a "false doctrine from the fleshly thinking man?" I mean, everyone believes that they are reading the Bible by the leading of the Holy Spirit, and they can, for the most part, point to a place in the Bible that they feel supports their view or doctrine. So how do you demonstrate to that person that you have the authority, qualifications and knowledge to declare their doctrine invalid, false or fleshly? Why should they listen to you over their own pastor? What if they turn around and say it is YOUR teaching that is fleshly?

I mean, none of own the corner market on this. Which one of has an opinion that carries more weight that someone else's when it comes to having the perfect set of doctrines?

The problem is that everyone thinks they are being led by the Spirit in their reading of the word, so what would one use to convince someone that their take on the word is wrong? or that their denom's take on the word is wrong? and what would one use to show they have the right to point out what is wrong about a particular denom.?

This is by far one of the most profound and thought provoking and honest threads I have ever read on the internet. I was where some of you are at the present ten years ago regarding the quandry of who is right.

I would like to give you a short testimonial if you will bear with me. Some of you may understand while others will not.

I was leading an adult Sunday school class as I had done for many years. Throughout those years I began noticing a persistant shift in a watered down Gospel, not just in the denomination I attended but in all denonimations. Many years ago I could moderate an adult class and it was truly a teaching class of denominational understanding of the Bible. It was consistant and everyone generally was willing to learn and accept that particular teaching. But during the late 60', early 70's there were some changes in what and how we discussed issues in that class. By the mid 90's it had become a free for all as to what each desired to believe, what each thought they believed based on their own individual interpretation. Needless, I was very confused as the leader of such a group. In attempting to get back into some form of unity and doctrinal standards I began investigating just how I could do that and with what material.

To make a long story much shorter, I read some material on what constituted the Church, written by a archmandrite in the Orthodox Church. It was profound but not necessarily convincing so I read other explanations on the same topic by other Orthodox bishops and teachers.

It was as if an epiphany had taken place in my thinking. If what they said was true, I was seriously in error. I somehow knew that I was no longer protestant but it took four years of very deep study to take each doctrine, study of the history of the Church that eventually led me to walk into an Orthodox Church and speak to a priest.

What I learned in those four years and which has not changed in the last six as I have been a member of the Orthodox Church is that what I had believed before was incorrect on every point that I checked save one.

What struck me most is that for 2000 years not a single doctrine has ever changed meaning from the beginning. I am more convinced today that the Holy Spirit has lived up to what scripture says. He has preserved His ONCE given Gospel and His Church in this world to share with the world. It is the historical witness of the authentic work of the Holy Spirit to preserve what He promised until the end of time.

It is not man made, in fact, every time in history when a single individual attempted to change that Gospel it has been thwarted and declared heretical.

You are right that not one single man has that Truth locked up. But Christ gave that whole Truth to the Apostles to descimante to that early Church. It is truly the Body of Christ where that Truth lies, Christ is Head of that Body, and we are members of that Body of Christ. Thus Christ is that Church. It is precisely why I can say I believe in One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church because it is a Person, Christ.

The Holy Spirit does not give us new truth. But He does lead us to the Truth. The Truth was given long time ago, once, for all time, for all. It has always been there, we only need to accept by faith. That is also the authority that one can have in proclaiming that Gospel. It is ONE Gospel, the same Gospel that all have heard from the beginning and will not change until He comes again.

The Gospel is not what you think it is, or what you have interpreted it to mean. That is precisely why Protestantism is falling in on itself. It no longer is a universal Gospel. It has become an individual gospel. No one else knows what your particular gospel might be until you explain it. That is not what Christ meant by unity in ONE faith. It is exactly why most will take it personally when you tell them they are incorrect. I often get the retort also, "how do you know what I believe" or you don't know what I believe". If one claimed to be a Christian, any Christian should be able to explain what you believe. One should believe the same thing. It was given ONCE, for all. An Early Christian would have no trouble understanding my explanation today. I can explain Orthodoxy for any other and they for me because it is a universal Gospel, not a private one.

One needs to be a Berean. That does not mean what most protestants perceive it to mean. That one studies the Bible then attempts to align His interpretation with the Universal Gospel and when it conflicts his personal interpretation stands.

It means exactly how those Bereans checked the OT to see if Paul was correct. They saw that he was but not based on their own interpretation but what those texts had always meant for Isreal.

It is also why Roman Catholicism is changing as well. It is being lead by men, by the forces of society rather than the other way around. It is most unfortunate that Roman Catholicism became the dominate faith in the west and from that broke the protestant reformers. Their mistake was not coming back to the original faith. They were as mislead by the misinformation regarding Roman Catholicism as most people are today.

I could go on but time to stop. Some of you understand the dilemna of protestantism and are searching for that Truth. All I can say, it is there and the Holy Spirit will lead you to it in His good time. But what He will not do, is give you a whole new gospel, a whole new revelation of truths and understandings that have never seen the light of day, let alone be called the Gospel.

[backontrack]

Do you believe that the blood of Christ is present in the wine along with the wine itself?

It was not the wine itself but in remembrence of my Lord. I walked away with the filling they did not consider me as part of his body and olny members were, that is why I cried after words! A grown man cry go figure!

[OneLight]

Do you believe that the blood of Christ is present in the wine along with the wine itself?

It was not the wine itself but in remembrence of my Lord. I walked away with the filling they did not consider me as part of his body and olny members were, that is why I cried after words! A grown man cry go figure!

Some denominations believe that the blood of Christ is in the wine, or even takes place of the wine upon consumption. If you do not believe as they do, then they will no allow you to partake. I think this is what Smalcald was referring to. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[backontrack]

There is nothing that man can do to correct this issue except to allow the Holy Spirit to show us where we are wrong. This can only be done by using the tools we have for growth. Studying the word as the Spirit teaches us, Worshiping God in spirit and truth, Fasting and Praying. As we use these tools to become spiritually closer to God, His Spirit will open our "spiritual eyes" so we can see our errors, which we all have. When we see these errors, we have a choice to make ... allow the Spirit to correct our hearts and minds or continue on the same path we had been walking down. The Christian that seeks maturity will choose the former. This is not a denominational teaching, but a personal one between "God and I".

You see, there is not correct denomination. No one man can say he has the complete truth. Truth is found in the Holy Spirit that speaks what He hears from the Father, as He teaches us. God is the only one who knows the truth. It has to come from Him, not man. Doesn't the Holy Spirit convict us of sin? He, through His teaching of the word, will bring the word to life when He fulfills, in us, the following scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The scripture speaks singularly, using the word man, not men. This is between "God and I". By letting Him work in us individually, He will accomplish His plan in changing the Body, one at a time.

You are all correct when you say that no man has the truth. We don't. That no one denomination is correct. It is not. There is no one man who is better then another, we all have errors in our beliefs. We all need to allow the Spirit to correct us from the inside out, so that we know, in our hearts and minds, that we are following Him as He leads. The closer we are with Christ, the louder we here His voice as He works the scripture of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 in us. That is how unity will happen.

Good preaching Onelight.

Onelight you left out one thing!

If we do not Love our neighbor quote (brothern) as ourself then we are living a lie and the truth is not in us and we cannot call ourself Christian. They being the (world) will know us (Christ) in us by our love one for another! Therefore considering all the divisions we have we have a long way to go before we can be one mind one spirit one body. So how can we say we are Christian if we do not have this kind of Love one for another?