Bush VETOS Ant i-Torture Bill ! ! !

[nebula]

Sodium Pentathol yields better results and is harmless.

Question - how do you know this?

Have read a research paper on the issue, or an intelligence report comparing interrogation methods? Or what are you basing this information on?

I personally have never been exposed to interrogation methods, so truthfully I don't know what works and what doesn't, nor do I know of all the methods that have been utilized.

So, how is it that you know Sodium Pentathol yields better results?

I don't want my government to imitate the Taliban!

What does the Taliban do with their prisoners?

[MorningGlory]

For all you experts who think waterboarding is actually torture...have you ever seen it done? It looks like a fraternity initiation. I'm sorry, but when the safety of my family and country always comes before the comfort of the enemy. You want to talk about harsh treatment? How about this:

Waterboarding, which is only torture to the ignorant and those of an overly genteel nature, serves the same purpose(s); it extracts information that may be helpful and it can save saves lives. Furthermore, the one who experiences waterboarding brings it on himself; it is the result of his not co-operating with the authorities. They are warned, given opportunities to co-operate. Watherboarding is a tactic of last resort.

Star Trek fans remember what the rest of society seems to have forgotten: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In today's culture, it seems Americans have lost the stomach for war. I assume they are slowly losing their love of freedom, too.

Are you an expert on waterboarding, Marnie? Have you ever seen it done (and I don't mean on t.v.)?

Our society, a Federalist Republic, is NOT built upon the premise put forth on Star Trek. It differs from a Democracy. See below.

The chief characteristic and distinguishing feature of a Democracy is: Rule by Omnipotent Majority. In a Democracy, The Individual, and any group of Individuals composing any Minority, have no protection against the unlimited power of The Majority. It is a case of Majority-over-Man.

A Republic, on the other hand, has a very different purpose and an entirely different form, or system, of government. Its purpose is to control The Majority strictly, as well as all others among the people, primarily to protect The Individual

[JustinM]

quote chimoku: "Besides, Waterboarding violates the proscribed treatment of prisoners of war outlined by the Geneva Convention."

Your uninformed statements are becoming quite taxing and before you make the same inaccurate statement again, I will address it.

Terrorists are unlawful combatants and are not protected under the Geneva Convention.

Here is what a POW is, tell me which category a terrorist belongs in.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a4...125641e004a9e68

Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[

(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

© that of carrying arms openly;

(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention

Article 4 defines who is a Protected person: Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals. But it explicitly excludes Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention and the citizens of a neutral state or an allied state if that state has normal diplomatic relations with in the State in whose hands they are.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a4...125641e004aa3c5

Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.

In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.

Now, we have 2 forms of misinformation circulating this topic and those need to be resolved.

First. Waterboarding isn't torture, as torture is currently defined. It is subjectively defined based on everyone's prejudices. I don't believe waterboarding causes the kind of mental anguish that is defined. Personally, I think mental anguish would be on the lines of making the detainee believe his family is being tortured or murdered, or is being subjected to drug induced fears and nightmares, or getting him addicted to narcotics.

Second, under the Geneva Conventions, that many people are willing to invoke, but seems to be completely ignorant of, POW status does not apply to terrorists. They are fighting in a conflict to represent islam, not their state. Islam is not a member of the Geneva Conventions. Terrorists don't wear their state's flag or symbol on their sleeves in order to distinguish themselves from noncombatants.

Chimoku, you are bringing up your objections to this discussion, which has been addressed many times over, and using false information to try and strengthen your argument.

Torture was defined and in that definition waterboarding doesn't fall into that category, unless you want to bring up mental anguish, in that case there are reasonable arguments to be made on both sides of the issue, but it has not been settled and there is no consensus.

Second, terrorists aren't POW's and disqualify themselves from being lawful combatants because they refuse to represent a state signatory of the Geneva Conventions and they specifically target other noncombatants in their attacks, as well as torture and murder the lawful combatants and noncombatants they detain. If they want to be protected by the laws of the Geneva Conventions, they must be subject to those laws as well. In this case, they have broken every law of the Geneva Conventions.

Do try to bring integrity to these discussions if you want to be taken seriously.

[JustinM]

Protecting Children in Armed Conflict.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/h...07?opendocument

Protection of Civilians in Armed Conflict.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/h...07?opendocument

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/h...hl?OpenDocument

Even under humanitarian law, the terrorists fail to live up to basic, moral values of human life and dignity.

[Old Timer]

Even under humanitarian law, the terrorists fail to live up to basic, moral values of human life and dignity.

No doubt about that. Therefore we can treat them without any consideration of moral values, human life or dignity.

Yes sir! Proud to be an American!

[Arthur Durnan]

Proud of America taking the lead inhelping to rid society of Islamic Fascism bent on the destruction of America & the Werstern World.

GOD BLESS THE USA!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Guest LadyC]

well.......

i'm proud to be a Christian... even though God has historically allowed and even commanded things that i personally find inhumane. as for me, i'm not going to complain about waterboarding, i'm just going to rejoice in the fact that our government doesn't subject terrorists to the kind of punishment that God expected His people to carry out against the enemy.

[JustinM]

Even under humanitarian law, the terrorists fail to live up to basic, moral values of human life and dignity.

No doubt about that. Therefore we can treat them without any consideration of moral values, human life or dignity.

Yes sir! Proud to be an American!

Do you realize you are defending rabid islamic fascists?

We aren't talking about abu muhab hussein the goat farmer/conscript of his government's war.

We are talking about the abu muhab jihad hussein that would slit your throat and watch you bleed out on the street.

OT, you know, very well that your last statement was overly dramatic and mischaracterized us.

Did I advocate any abolition of moral values, human life or dignity, no sir, I did not. You should be ashamed of yourself for slandering your brethren.

It is of my opinion that waterboarding isn't torture, as torture is currently defined. Nor do I believe that unlawful combatants are afforded any protections of an organization they are not a member of nor do they represent. In other words, they are fair game. Don't doubt for a minute that if they were the guard and I the prisoner, my treatment would not be in the same category as what they are receiving now.

We are treating them better than what the Geneva Conventions requires and yet our soldiers are still being tortured, maimed and cut to pieces. Hard labor is acceptable as humane treatment for POW's, yet those at GITMO aren't subjected to it.

They have modern waste facilities, something they didn't even have in their homeland. 3 Squares of their traditional diet. Books to read, mosques to attend, recreation.

Why do you find it so convenient to forget these luxuries, that not even normal lawful middle eastern citizens don't experience? You sarcasm makes you sound like a bored, bitter, old man who is stubbornly set in his ways. Fine by me, but don't lecture me "reverend." You could benefit from some preaching as well.

[MorningGlory]

Even under humanitarian law, the terrorists fail to live up to basic, moral values of human life and dignity.

No doubt about that. Therefore we can treat them without any consideration of moral values, human life or dignity.

Yes sir! Proud to be an American!

For the life of me I don't understand why so many don't understand this; that when we sink to their level we become no better than them. My grandpa used to say "when you lie down with pigs, you're going to smell like one." To paraphrase that; you're not going to maintain the moral highground by getting down to the enemy's level. We don't have to become inhuman mutants in order to dispatch them.

[MorningGlory]

[quote name='JustinM' date='Mar 10 2008, 12:48 PM' post='1133365'.

First. Waterboarding isn't torture, as torture is currently defined. It is subjectively defined based on everyone's prejudices. I don't believe waterboarding causes the kind of mental anguish that is defined. Personally, I think mental anguish would be on the lines of making the detainee believe his family is being tortured or murdered, or is being subjected to drug induced fears and nightmares, or getting him addicted to narcotics.