Bush VETOS Ant i-Torture Bill ! ! !

[nebula]

yep, i agree that it is... and while the statement you quoted was a fabulous, if i recall correctly, the "accidental death" of santiago was not something that occurred as a result of trying to defend the country against enemy combatants.... and if it did, it didn't have to, but was set up that way to get rid of someone who jessup didn't like. i could be wrong, it's been a long time since i saw the movie.

Jessup ordered the code red, a punishment, as a means to straighten up his act. It was un unsymathetic act, to be sure, but he surely did not intend for it to kill him. He admitted it was regretable but he thought it to be par for the course in his mission.

Actually, I don't mind this thread being derailed at this point. (See my above post)

But I wanted to add a clarification. The Code Red was deemed illegal, but it was ordered anyway. The trouble was the soldier in question had a heart condition that resulted in his poor physical performance. Now the soldier could tell something was wrong with his health and begged for a transfer. But because the doctor(s) didn't diagnose this condition (at least to me it was very clear early on that the misdiagnoses of the doctor was to blame - although he managed to cover his rear quite well), his request was denied, and he was treated like a wuss who needed to be whipped into shape. Thus the ordering of the Code Red. And although the sergeant(?) tried to go easy on him (knowing the soldier in question was physically weak, just not knowing why), it was enough to overload his heart, and he died.

As far as if toughening up was necessary or not for defense, it was brought out early on just how tense the situation was at the base, and how dangerous it was. This particular soldier was the weak link in the chain, so to speak, that could endanger them all should he break. thus, it was deemed he needed to be toughened up.

So, does that make sense?

[healingoil]

Our God is a sovereign and merciful God but he is also a just God - something some of you seem to conveniently forget when discussing how we are to deal with criminals.

Show me where God says to be as low as your enemies..............

As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, to compare this and the mentality/actions of our enemies is absolutely ludacris and has no merit whatsoever.

For all you experts who think waterboarding is actually torture...have you ever seen it done? It looks like a fraternity initiation. I'm sorry, but when the safety of my family and country always comes before the comfort of the enemy. You want to talk about harsh treatment? How about this:

When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Cor. 5:4, 5)

My point in citing this, is to illustrate a point: love takes many forms. Paul tells the Corinthians to excommunicate an unrepentant believer (hand them over to Satan). This seems harsh, but it serves two purposes: (1) it protects the rest of the church from their corruptive influence, and (2) handing them over to Satan (letting them wallow in their sin) may result in their coming to their senses and coming to repentance.

Waterboarding, which is only torture to the ignorant and those of an overly genteel nature, serves the same purpose(s); it extracts information that may be helpful and it can save saves lives. Furthermore, the one who experiences waterboarding brings it on himself; it is the result of his not co-operating with the authorities. They are warned, given opportunities to co-operate. Watherboarding is a tactic of last resort.

Star Trek fans remember what the rest of society seems to have forgotten: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In today's culture, it seems Americans have lost the stomach for war. I assume they are slowly losing their love of freedom, too.

Excellent post!

[Guest Desaan]

Hello and welcome Desaan. Welcome to Worth Boards.

I am certain most of the people here do not blithely accept "violence towards human beings". It's not like we are saying we want terror suspects or POWs to be waterboarded.

But you will defend it vehemently?

We simply don't think it needs to removed from the interogators bag of tricks.

Is that what they're calling it these days? What a wonderful euphemism.

We believe this method of information extraction is extreme and only acceptable as a last resort.

That you think it is acceptable at all speaks volumes. Besides that, if you're only willing to see it from a pragmatic point, it's not exactly the most reliable source of "information extraction".

However, there are many who liken it to bamboo shoots under the fingernail or the iron maiden. This comparison is not a fair one. Nor is your comparison of terrorists to the common criminal.

You rather miss my point. There seems to be a certain subset of society that believes there should be no justice, only an outlet for their visceral rage. Whether it is against common criminals or terrorists seems to make little difference to them.

Besides that, torture is torture. Beating someone with an iron bar may be more humane than killing them but it doesn't make it right. Such is the same with this. It may be more humane but that doesn't make it any more justifiable.

You liken our view of enemy combatants to that of our personal punching bags. Could you be any more insulting? Please try to remember this is a Christian forum. We are allowed to share our opinions here without being called terrorists. Not a very good precident from someone who advocates taking the moral high ground.

Good. I'm glad it's insulting; obviously I wasn't far from the mark if such was the case.

I must admit, I still think I am in a suitable position to advocate that the proponents of torture either continue to do so or stand in a position to claim moral superiority against their enemies. It is not - in any way or for any reason - acceptable for a civilised Western nation to employ torture. I stand by what I said previously: take a position but at least be honest about it.

[Marnie]

For all you experts who think waterboarding is actually torture...have you ever seen it done? It looks like a fraternity initiation. I'm sorry, but when the safety of my family and country always comes before the comfort of the enemy. You want to talk about harsh treatment? How about this:

Waterboarding, which is only torture to the ignorant and those of an overly genteel nature, serves the same purpose(s); it extracts information that may be helpful and it can save saves lives. Furthermore, the one who experiences waterboarding brings it on himself; it is the result of his not co-operating with the authorities. They are warned, given opportunities to co-operate. Watherboarding is a tactic of last resort.

Star Trek fans remember what the rest of society seems to have forgotten: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In today's culture, it seems Americans have lost the stomach for war. I assume they are slowly losing their love of freedom, too.

Are you an expert on waterboarding, Marnie? Have you ever seen it done (and I don't mean on t.v.)?

Our society, a Federalist Republic, is NOT built upon the premise put forth on Star Trek. It differs from a Democracy. See below.

The chief characteristic and distinguishing feature of a Democracy is: Rule by Omnipotent Majority. In a Democracy, The Individual, and any group of Individuals composing any Minority, have no protection against the unlimited power of The Majority. It is a case of Majority-over-Man.

A Republic, on the other hand, has a very different purpose and an entirely different form, or system, of government. Its purpose is to control The Majority strictly, as well as all others among the people, primarily to protect The Individual’s God-given, unalienable rights and therefore for the protection of the rights of The Minority, of all minorities, and the liberties of people in general.

It boggles my mind that you, as a Christian, can dismiss waterboarding as no big deal and assert that a prisoner brings it on himself. This is a Nazi type exercise in outmoded interrogation techniques and should be denounced by civilized countries. I'd wager you would change your mind quickly if you were the subject and we would know straightaway whether you were 'ignorant' or 'overly genteel'.

Yes. I worked at the Pentagon. I'm not an expert, but I have seen it done (training videos and such).

I hope people like you are never called upon to fight for your country. Incidentally, how can you be sure I have never been tortured? Having a choice, I'd pick waterboarding.

Next question?

[chimoku]

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Desaan:

It is not - in any way or for any reason - acceptable for a civilised Western nation to employ torture.

Well said.

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[Scarletprayers]

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Desaan:

It is not - in any way or for any reason - acceptable for a civilised Western nation to employ torture.

Well said.

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Huh, I was thinking more along the lines of

[chimoku]

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Marni - I've read your posts in other threads ,and you always come across like a really warm and intelligent woman. So I do with all due respect, beg to differ with you on a comment you made

Marni

but I have seen it done (training videos and such).

you know . . .a video is horrid enough . . but its like watching a birth on the video - people watching don't know the pain.

Incidentally, how can you be sure I have never been tortured? Having a choice, I'd pick waterboarding.

I guess we arent sure whether you have or not.

However, having worked with trauma victims and torture survivors, typically they are not as casual in commenting about this kind of experience - as we tend to be who have not been through torture. They tend not to be able to speak about it at all. Its too painful. i t takes years to process that.

Just like it does our men who come back from combat - with PTSD

- its a kind of very severe PTSD only more complex , more damaging -

Very sad to witness , the deeply imprinted anquish, the impact torture has on the human being.

They are never the same.

Many are in some respects spirtually broken.

I am always at awe when I see and hear John McCain - because of what he went through at the hanoi Hilton during the time in captivity.

He is a study and a remarkable man - and an exception in many respects to the typical psychological construct of a torture victim. But I dont know how much debriefing / therapy he may have had when he returned . . . nor the preparedness in training for this sort of thing . . . although one can hardly prepare for torture . .

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[JustinM]

Hello and welcome Desaan. Welcome to Worth Boards.

I am certain most of the people here do not blithely accept "violence towards human beings". It's not like we are saying we want terror suspects or POWs to be waterboarded.

But you will defend it vehemently?

We simply don't think it needs to removed from the interogators bag of tricks.

Is that what they're calling it these days? What a wonderful euphemism.

We believe this method of information extraction is extreme and only acceptable as a last resort.

That you think it is acceptable at all speaks volumes. Besides that, if you're only willing to see it from a pragmatic point, it's not exactly the most reliable source of "information extraction".

However, there are many who liken it to bamboo shoots under the fingernail or the iron maiden. This comparison is not a fair one. Nor is your comparison of terrorists to the common criminal.

You rather miss my point. There seems to be a certain subset of society that believes there should be no justice, only an outlet for their visceral rage. Whether it is against common criminals or terrorists seems to make little difference to them.

Besides that, torture is torture. Beating someone with an iron bar may be more humane than killing them but it doesn't make it right. Such is the same with this. It may be more humane but that doesn't make it any more justifiable.

You liken our view of enemy combatants to that of our personal punching bags. Could you be any more insulting? Please try to remember this is a Christian forum. We are allowed to share our opinions here without being called terrorists. Not a very good precident from someone who advocates taking the moral high ground.

Good. I'm glad it's insulting; obviously I wasn't far from the mark if such was the case.

I must admit, I still think I am in a suitable position to advocate that the proponents of torture either continue to do so or stand in a position to claim moral superiority against their enemies. It is not - in any way or for any reason - acceptable for a civilised Western nation to employ torture. I stand by what I said previously: take a position but at least be honest about it.

Have you read every post on this topic? If you had, you'd understand that the source of contention on the issue isn't whether the US should employ torture on terrorists. It's whether waterboarding is torture or not. So, when you criticise us, you need to get your facts straight and you can start by replacing the word torture with waterboarding.

Now if you want to debate whether waterboarding is indeed torture, we can have that debate, but otherwise you fall into the category of being a propagandist.

Whether waterboarding is torture or not, is the topic at hand and as you see, the country is divided on this issue and it is still unresolved.

It's not hard, really, to tell who is an American Citizen and who is not here.

Insulting people right away, as a new member, isn't the way to win an argument here.

[nebula]

Good. I'm glad it's insulting; obviously I wasn't far from the mark if such was the case.

[Guest Desaan]

Have you read every post on this topic? If you had, you'd understand that the source of contention on the issue isn't whether the US should employ torture on terrorists. It's whether waterboarding is torture or not. So, when you criticise us, you need to get your facts straight and you can start by replacing the word torture with waterboarding.

Now if you want to debate whether waterboarding is indeed torture, we can have that debate, but otherwise you fall into the category of being a propagandist.

Whether waterboarding is torture or not, is the topic at hand and as you see, the country is divided on this issue and it is still unresolved.

It's not hard, really, to tell who is an American Citizen and who is not here.

away as a new member, isn't the way to win an argument here.

As I understood it the title, and indeed, original intent of this thread was to discuss the vetoing of an anti-torture bill. Not an anti-waterboarding bill. Perhaps somewhere along the line the debate meandered from that?

And, do I detect a jab in saying it's not hard to tell who is an American citizen? Is it because I do not value American lives any more or less than the lives of people from other countries or backgrounds?

In any case I stand by my above comment about it. Simply saying that it is more humane than other methods of torture does not make it any more justifiable - in the same way that beating someone to a bloody mess is more humane than killing them but no more justifiable.

The lesser of available evils it may be but that does not diminish the fact that it is still evil.

Also it seems your last sentence was either malformed by the forum script or you may have intended to edit it.