Treasure Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 272 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,338 Content Per Day: 0.65 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2008 So, is it like the prodical son? He believed but left and the father allowed him back? Sweetie, the prodical son never stopped being his son. They were just out of fellowship, but never out of relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnForChrist Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 81 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/21/1990 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Appearently believers can. Especially kids who grow up with nut cases that have software that teaches you to live and talk like christ. No matter where you are at with the Lord, you still have that personal choice. And if you feel abandoned, it is humanly possible to leave the Christ you have been 'taught' about. I respectively disagree. Once a person has been regenerated by the power of GOD they cannot "un-convert". Those who simply grow up in church then fall away are just manifestations of lost churchmen who were never converted to begin with. Jesus declared, John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeRent Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 5 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2008 I believe justification/redemption is irreversible. In the 'P' of T.U.L.I.P., ("Perseverance of the Saints") it states that if a believer turns away from the faith, sooner or later they will return; and if an apostate does not return, they were never redeemed to begin with. Generally, I agree with this point of view. There is some scriptural support: 1 John 2:19, & John 6:37-40 for instance. It is certainly possible to be a 'carnal Christian' -- redeemed, but living in unbelief. On their way to heaven? Yes. And yet, missing out on all that God has for them them here on earth. There's so much more to being saved than going to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2008 It is certainly possible to be a 'carnal Christian' -- redeemed, but living in unbelief. On their way to heaven? Yes. And yet, missing out on all that God has for them them here on earth. There's so much more to being saved than going to heaven. So, does God show favoritism? Was He less favorable towards the Jews, than us? Hebrews 4:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, 9 where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did. 10 That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.' 11 So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" 12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15 As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." 16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeRent Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 5 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2008 Suzanne, I'm not certain what you are getting at. Could you explain further? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~ angelique ~~ Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 85 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 665 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/24/1968 Author Share Posted March 23, 2008 Wait a minute, what is this tulip thing people have mentioned????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeRent Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 5 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2008 Wait a minute, what is this tulip thing people have mentioned????? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_points_o...ts_of_Calvinism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 I saw this response in the Atheist thread: See, what you don't know about me and the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road. It's not that we've never "opened our hearts to jesus" or "asked God for guidance." Nothing has ever revealed itself to me and I lived most of my life as a christian. To me, it's very hard to continue to have faith in something that I believe now is just a myth. If it works for you, great. I wouldn't disbelieve either if there had been any proof whatsover. To me, praying to god has the same effect as praying to a brick. I discovered a very old thread with this topic but would like to revisit it. When the above poster stated, "the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road," I thought of several friends of mine. Many of which were raised in Christian homes, said they were believers, got baptised, went to church, and are now pagans, atheists, or witches. Some actually went to Christian schools and know the bible pretty good yet are now unbelievers and sceptics. Once a believer, is it possible to be un-converted from Christianity? This topic has been stuck in my head for some time. Thanks for responding Heb 6:4-9 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. I think this passage speaks pretty clear about the question. The answer is "No, it is impossible" God will not be shamed by their insolence. God rejects them. welcome to the board hick... and a big to this response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Hick Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 96 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/12/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2008 I believe justification/redemption is irreversible. In the 'P' of T.U.L.I.P., ("Perseverance of the Saints") it states that if a believer turns away from the faith, sooner or later they will return; and if an apostate does not return, they were never redeemed to begin with. Generally, I agree with this point of view. There is some scriptural support: 1 John 2:19, & John 6:37-40 for instance. I don't get the point about "if a believer turns away...". If you are going to borrow from TULIP, then you must have the Bible to support each petal. Part of the support base for 'P' is Php 1:6 "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the last day of Jesus Christ". Q: Why should we have confidence? A: Because the good word is of Christ, not of ourselves. Q: Is Christ's work ever characterized as two steps forward, one step back? A: Never. That is why we have condidence that He will complete it. Then we also have 1Co 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man..." Now some folks might say this is the mechanism for how the sealed believer would "backslide". Yet if we continue with the passage, we find that this cannot happen because of this one word "but" as in "...but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." So one could say that God has a vested interest in our success. Mat 5:48 "Ye therefore shall be perfect..." Since the Calvinist knows that salvation is about glorifying God, and since we know that it is God's work not ours, how exactly is God glorified in the "fruit" of a backslidden believer? If one thinks it is in the comeback, what greater comeback is there in raising one from the dead? For we all were dead in our tresspasses and sins, and the regenerating work of the Spirit brings us to life. Why would we ever, once brought to life, given a new heart, answer to a new father, ever go back to death? On the other hand, it is perfectly consistent with Free Will Theology (just ask Jacob Armnius and the Remonstrants) for a person who has used their Free Will Choice to choose Christ, to not lose that Free Will, but reactivate it to choose to reject Christ; theoretically choosing Christ on Sunday mornings, and rejecting Christ on Monday night, wash rinse, repeat. It is certainly possible to be a 'carnal Christian' -- redeemed, but living in unbelief. On their way to heaven? Yes. And yet, missing out on all that God has for them them here on earth. There's so much more to being saved than going to heaven. Could you give any example in Scripture where a person indwelled by the Spirit became a 'carnal Christian'? I know that people will swear up and down that they are Elect yet but find no dissonance in running a brothel and meth lab, but we all know better. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted March 23, 2008 I saw this response in the Atheist thread: See, what you don't know about me and the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road. It's not that we've never "opened our hearts to jesus" or "asked God for guidance." Nothing has ever revealed itself to me and I lived most of my life as a christian. To me, it's very hard to continue to have faith in something that I believe now is just a myth. If it works for you, great. I wouldn't disbelieve either if there had been any proof whatsover. To me, praying to god has the same effect as praying to a brick. I discovered a very old thread with this topic but would like to revisit it. When the above poster stated, "the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road," I thought of several friends of mine. Many of which were raised in Christian homes, said they were believers, got baptised, went to church, and are now pagans, atheists, or witches. Some actually went to Christian schools and know the bible pretty good yet are now unbelievers and sceptics. Once a believer, is it possible to be un-converted from Christianity? This topic has been stuck in my head for some time. Thanks for responding I think BFP had a pretty good response. God works in our lives in ways we don't understand. For example many of the atheists on posting boards act kind of like rebellious children, they are actually obsessed with Christianity, and they spend a lot of time convincing themselves they don't believe. To me that sound like a teenager who claims they want to reject their family, yet gee who are they trying to get a reaction from? Who are they dependant on? Remember it also takes great faith to believe in atheism, as atheism requires a pro-active denial of a creator, something that they cannot know for certain is true or not, so it can come only from faith. So we must be careful with how we treat these people. Some indeed never really did believe and never were saved, they just thought they were, others however may just be going through a searching period in their lives, and they may be prodding us to see where our hearts are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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