Can believers be un-converted?

[~~ angelique ~~]

Wait a minute, what is this tulip thing people have mentioned?????

TULIP is the 5 Points of Calvinism in an acronym. Since your question is about whether or not a person can lose there salvation, the doctrine of the Perserverance of the Saints (The "P" on TULIP) was mentioned in contrast to the idea of one loosing there salvation. This doctrine states that when GOD beings a saving work of salvation in the life of a believer He will complete this work until the day of his Son Jesus Christ according to Philippians 1:6, and much more scriptures. Now this does not mean that a believer cannot fall into sin, or will live in sinless perfect but that if he does GOD will come, convict and discipline. This can take a week, or 5 years (I dont know it is GOD who does it), but GOD will finish what He has started.

Burn

Thanks.. all of this stuff like calvinism is so confusing

[~~ angelique ~~]

angelique, this is such a hotly debated topic, don't feel bad for not grasping it. if it was easy to grasp, everyone would be in agreement.

as one who believes that the "once saved always saved" theory is seriously flawed, i'll try to explain from the non-osas position how it happens.

salvation can't be lost. to lose something is accidental, totally unintentional. it can't be snatched away... because that is totally without our own permission.

there is a difference between walking away and rejecting one's salvation. when a person (like the prodigal son, perhaps?) becomes angry or embittered, and turns their back on God, the Holy Spirit continues to woo that person back into the fold. for how long? well, we can't really know, and i imagine it varies from person to person based on the condition of their heart.

i'll use you as an example, sorta, only in reverse. you have rejected a way of life you once associated with... but it's still ingrained in your head, and it still tugs at your heart. well, when a christian "backslides", or starts running from God, the Holy Spirit is still tugging at that person's heartstrings... the knowledge of who God is, who Jesus is, what He has done for us, still exists. and for that person, there is still hope. this may continue for months, for years, it can EVEN last for DECADES, without God turning us over to our reprobate minds.

on the other hand, there will be some who fall so deeply "in love" with their sinful lifestyle that they simply no longer CARE. they ignore the tugging of the Holy Spirit, and resist it so strongly, that they essentially become spiritually deaf to the Holy Spirit, and they quit believing.

the foundation of christianity, the one requirement for salvation, is to believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is the son of God and was resurrected from the dead and lives today. it is entirely possible for a person to run from God and live a lifestyle that does not reflect Him, while still believing in their heart and admitting to the belief that Jesus is who He says He is. it is also entirely possible for a person to become so spiritually deaf that they no longer hold that belief in their heart, much less admit it verbally. that is at the point when God allows the person to wallow in their own mire and cuts them off. not because He doesn't love them, but because there is no longer any chance that the person will ever willingly return to Christ. and God alone is the only one who knows when that point has been reached. the individual did not "lose" salvation, nor was it stolen from them... they willfully rejected the truth to the point when they no longer were capable of ever being receptive to it again.

it takes a lot of effort on a person's part to become apostate. God doesn't let anyone leave His family without a fight. He continues to love them, continues to draw them back to Him, and continues to give them chance after chance, until they have cut that final cord.

[Guest LadyC]

angelique, i've been a christian for a long, long time... and i still can't keep all the points of the calvinism and armenism doctrines straight LOL. heck, i couldn't even tell you which one of those doctrines the tulip falls into if i hadn't just read it on here!

[BurnForChrist]

Wait a minute, what is this tulip thing people have mentioned?????

TULIP is the 5 Points of Calvinism in an acronym. Since your question is about whether or not a person can lose there salvation, the doctrine of the Perserverance of the Saints (The "P" on TULIP) was mentioned in contrast to the idea of one loosing there salvation. This doctrine states that when GOD beings a saving work of salvation in the life of a believer He will complete this work until the day of his Son Jesus Christ according to Philippians 1:6, and much more scriptures. Now this does not mean that a believer cannot fall into sin, or will live in sinless perfect but that if he does GOD will come, convict and discipline. This can take a week, or 5 years (I dont know it is GOD who does it), but GOD will finish what He has started.

Burn

Thanks.. all of this stuff like calvinism is so confusing

Lol, well at first it can be confusing. But all the 5-Points do is try to explain as best as it can what the bible teaches on various topics (Once Save Always Save for example) in a articulative and adequate way. It took me a while to understand it, but when I did I am glad I studied it.

Burn

[tsth]

It is certainly possible to be a 'carnal Christian' -- redeemed, but living in unbelief. On their way to heaven? Yes. And yet, missing out on all that God has for them them here on earth. There's so much more to being saved than going to heaven.

So, does God show favoritism? Was He less favorable towards the Jews, than us?

Hebrews 4:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, 9 where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did. 10 That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.' 11 So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" 12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15 As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." 16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Suzanne,

I'm not certain what you are getting at.

Could you explain further? Thanks

Dear BeRent,

I'm saying that one does not enter in with "unbelief". If God is the same yesterday, today and forever. You'll have to re-read the above with regard to it.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Smalcald]

...For example many of the atheists on posting boards act kind of like rebellious children, they are actually obsessed with Christianity, and they spend a lot of time convincing themselves they don't believe. To me that sound like a teenager who claims they want to reject their family, yet gee who are they trying to get a reaction from? Who are they dependant on?...

I think that you are over-analyzing this.

They get on these boards because Christians are the last Politically Correct group to say the most evil and hate filled things without consequences. Also, the American Religion has adopted so many Post Modern philosophies that the body is divided up into many factions - few of them able to support any of their so-called doctrines with objective Scripture. This kind of atmosphere where anything goes allows for the semi-literate to engage in verbal combat paying no heed to any debate discipline or structure. In short, emotionally adolescent athiests, with no moral character like to bash Christians because it is an effortless yet satisfying thing to do in an antisocial way with zero consequences (like sifting their stool for their teeth) saying the things they say.

So one asks, why don't they go after an even easier target like Islam, Mormonism or any number of pagan religions. Why pick on Christianity? Simple. Jesus Christ said that they hate us because they first hated Him because He testified that their works are evil(Jn 7:7).

Spiritual Warfare is alive and well, friend.

Yes in some or even many cases I think you are correct. It is very PC right now to bash Christians.

I have gone down the road of debating with these characters on secular boards so I know where you are coming from. However, I was thinking what is my purpose for doing that? I can look at them as lost sheep or I can view them all as wolves. If they indeed are all wolves then interacting with them has no benefit at all with the exception of "sticking up" for our side as it gets slammed by adolescent and erroneous charges which are usually easy to refute. So for me it is a function of what I want to do? I am pretty much done throwing these guys red meat anymore I never really got much satisfaction even when I knew I was correct. So for me trying to reach those lost sheep among these atheists is more fruitful and satisfying, yet I think we need both, we need spiritual warriors.

[Smalcald]

As far as this question goes, in Romans indeed it says if you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart you will be saved.

Someone who believed with their heart cannot later re-cant, they never really believed with their heart, faith is not just intellectual belief or something magical that can be generated by saying some words. I can say I believe in Jesus as Lord and say the sinners prayer all day long; yet never really believe it in my heart. This is where our life comes in, this is where our faith bursts forth in actions and works which assure us that the Holy Spirit is indeed inside working in us, when we go ahead and walk in those works already prepared for us.

Christ Himself tells us many will come in the last days when He returns and say to Him but we DID believe we did all sorts of things in your name, and He will say depart from Me I never knew you, your works were evil. This of course is no concern to us and to you who do indeed have a true faith we can be so thankful for having that faith given to us by God.

[tsth]

What do you do with the "ifs" in Scriptures? Can you ignore their implications?

Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

1 Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

Romans 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

In His Truth,

Suzanne

[exrockstar]

Once a believer, is it possible to be un-converted from Christianity? This topic has been stuck in my head for some time. Thanks for responding

if the Holy Spirit has placed you into the body of Christ then no one can undo that. NO ONE!

[sheya joie]

I think of this verse:

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that

endureth to the end

shall be saved.

Also there is the parable of the four soils in Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 8.

Luke 8:4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:

5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The question is, while the first soil obviously represents those who do not receive and believe the Word about Jesus, do the other three soils represent people who actually believe? Or is it only the final group who 'make it'?