The ten nations that the Anti-christ will rule?

[Ephesians2-8]

Whoa, what a thread - how did this thread get so far off topic and onto other subjects like Mystery Babylon? LoL.

As for the original poster's question - You assume it is 10 nations based on the 10 toes of Daniels vision, correct? While it might seem logical to conclude the 10 toes are nations, the text does not specify. Some would then refer to Revelation 17:12-14 with the 10 'horns'- but that term simply means "representatives"- or "ambassadors."

Most likely the 10 toes is a reference to nations but it pays to be cautious on the point and not absolutely dogmatic. Also, the 10 toes would not necessarily mean a re-constitution of areas that comprised the old Roman empire per se. It might, but then again it might refer to 10 key nations which adopted a Roman-style form of government with an elected legislature and an executive leader - as in today's democracy. With this idea, it is entirely possible that the 10 horns and or toes is a reference to today's G-10 or G10 nations.

Consider this possible scenario...

The rapture occurs. Multitudes are missing. At the same time or shortly thereafter (perhaps minutes or hours) Babylon, aka "mystery" Babylon is destroyed by fire in one hour of one day as Revelation 18 puts it. It comes in the same one hour that the 10 horns vote power to the beast... Why? Why vote him into power? Perhaps it is because the "spin doctors" declare that UFOs from outer space ... i.e. "aliens" attacked Babylon and conducted a mass abduction. Planet Earth needs to unify behind a global government. Ambassadors of the G-10 meet hurriedly behind closed doors and elect/select a leader who promised he can rally humanity to defend the planet against a follow up "alien" attack. Sound feasible? The Powers That Be have hinted that at some point, a global gov't could and would be formed under such an "alien" threat. President Reagan and Soviet Premier Gorbachev hinted as much twice back in the 1980s during speeches.

[Ephesians2-8]

It seems a chunk of this thread went off track onto the subject of Mystery Babylon. There is a lot of misunderstanding and false understandings about that subject, not the least of which concerns various theories about the identity of this "mystery" called Babylon, The Great. I think that's because, God indicated that a future Babylon would be a 'mystery.' There is a couple of short E-books on the subject that anyone can download for FREE. One is entitled "Mystery Babylon: Myths, Errors of Interpretation" and a second book "The Mystery Babylon Debate Handbook." - both are by R.A. Coombes - who has also written a scholarly 2-volume work on the subject: "America, The Babylon." -- It's a 2 volume work - huge in size, heavy attention to the original Greek and Hebrew texts and scholastic translation work. Coombes also includes extensive empirical proofs.

A Seminary professor, Dr. Mark Hitchcock at Dallas Theological Seminary hailed Coombes' books as the definitive work on the theory that America is the Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. A Grace Theological Seminary professor, Dr. Fred Fogle praised the books in his book "A Road Map to the Future." Other authors, like Peter Goodgame, heavily cites Coombes in his book "Red Moon Rising."

For those citations, I figure some folks here might like to at least download some of his latest, FREE e-books on the subject. He has many E-books that are free downloads on his Prophecy News and Studies website - The Alpha-Omega Report. Here is a link to the E-book download page -

http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?opti...9&Itemid=67

I noticed that someone is proposing the idea that Jerusalem is the Babylon of Revelation 17. 18.

There are serious flaws in such a theory. Namely - that whoever Babylon is - it is destroyed, never to be rebuilt or lived in. Furthermore, it sinks beneath the ocean as Jesus Christ returns at the Second Coming, according to Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, and 64 as well as Revelation 18:21 - yet the prophecies also speak of a fire judgment that takes one hour for Babylon's destruction and it happens at the time the A/C comes to power in that same 'one hour' that the 10 horns vote power to him in Revelation 17:12-17.

So that, Babylon has two judgments, one by fire in one hour, leaving her a desert for an undetermined time frame. then at the 2nd coming - Rev 16:17-21 indicates a second judgment on Babylon at the 2nd Coming. The result is that Babylon is to be found no more ever.

If Jerusalem were actually "T-H-E" Babylon - then Jerusalem would be destroyed, never to be rebuilt and unable to fulfill the prophecies during the Tribulation period and unable to fulfill the role as the seat of the throne of Christ during the Millennial reign of Christ, because Jerusalem is the capital city of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. So the idea that Babylon is Jerusalem negates the Messianic, Millennial prophecies. Some think a new Jerusalem comes down from heaven, and it does, but only after the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years and the old earth is destroyed and a new heaven and new Earth come down, i.e. the New Jerusalem.

The moral here is don't confuse the "New Jerusalem" as a replacement for a Babylon.

Other factors also come into play, negating Jerusalem as the Babylon. including the fact that Babylon is the "last of the super-power nations (per Jeremiah 50-51) and Babylon is where all the world's leaders meet. It is also a land of abundant fresh waters Israel is not a fresh-water nation, and - Jeremiah tells us - Babylon is CITIES --- PLURAL. Babylon also has military forces/defenses that mount up into outer space. Also Jeremiah tells the Jews to flee out of Babylon and return to Zion and Jerusalem.

The "harlot" or "whore" concept is a reference to the chief goddess of ancient Babylon - goddess Ishtar aka Inanna who held the title in Babylon - given to her by her worshippers -- as the "Mother of the Harlots" because her religion was a "mystery" religion and promoted the concept of "Holy Sex" -- or salvation by sex.

The Ishtar goddess and her religion is what Revelation 17 is referencing. But who was Ishtar? According to Babylonian royal records she was one of the Anunnaki - the "benai hahelohim" of Genesis 6 who came down to Earth and messed with human DNA, creating a hybrid offspring race, called the Nephilim. --- Bottom line -- Ishtar was/is a fallen angel of high rank. She was the guardian angel of ancient Babylon... and according to Revelation 17, Ishtar, the Mother of the Harlots is the guardian angel of a super-power nation, which according to Revelation 18, and especially verses 11-13 indicates that this future super-power nation - the last of the super-powers - is also the Engine of Wealth for the world's economy and the place where world consumer goods prices are pegged and benchmarked.

As for the "blood" of prophets and saints... that is describing Ishtar, the fallen angel, primarily though also Rev 18:24 indicates that Babylon is responsible for all innocent murders from the time of the very first murder - Abel - based upon a special Greek verb tense - called a perfect participle. A perfect participle in Rev 18:24 indicates that the guilt of murder applies to the very first instance - which puts us back to Abel and all who come afterwards, and not just prophets and saints but of all those innocently killed.

Bottom line: Jerusalem fails to fit ALL the criteria of the prophetic passages, but especially the part about the Millennial reign aspects. Israel must be around to be The Kingdom of the Messiah, whose kingdom includes most of Iraq including ancient Babylon--- which also rules out the idea that Babylon is modern-day Iraq.

If you really want to get a handle on the complicated issues surrounding the attempts to identify a future Babylon, read the books - 2 volumes - "America, The Babylon" -- www.americathebabylon.com

and get the book through The A-O Report website -

www.aoreport.com

Edited July 31, 2008 by Ephesians2-8

[Celt]

It seems a chunk of this thread went off track onto the subject of Mystery Babylon. There is a lot of misunderstanding and false understandings about that subject, not the least of which concerns various theories about the identity of this "mystery" called Babylon, The Great. I think that's because, God indicated that a future Babylon would be a 'mystery.' There is a couple of short E-books on the subject that anyone can download for FREE. One is entitled "Mystery Babylon: Myths, Errors of Interpretation" and a second book "The Mystery Babylon Debate Handbook." - both are by R.A. Coombes - who has also written a scholarly 2-volume work on the subject: "America, The Babylon." -- It's a 2 volume work - huge in size, heavy attention to the original Greek and Hebrew texts and scholastic translation work. Coombes also includes extensive empirical proofs.

A Seminary professor, Dr. Mark Hitchcock at Dallas Theological Seminary hailed Coombes' books as the definitive work on the theory that America is the Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. A Grace Theological Seminary professor, Dr. Fred Fogle praised the books in his book "A Road Map to the Future." Other authors, like Peter Goodgame, heavily cites Coombes in his book "Red Moon Rising."

For those citations, I figure some folks here might like to at least download some of his latest, FREE e-books on the subject. He has many E-books that are free downloads on his Prophecy News and Studies website - The Alpha-Omega Report. Here is a link to the E-book download page -

http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?opti...9&Itemid=67

I noticed that someone is proposing the idea that Jerusalem is the Babylon of Revelation 17. 18.

There are serious flaws in such a theory. Namely - that whoever Babylon is - it is destroyed, never to be rebuilt or lived in. Furthermore, it sinks beneath the ocean as Jesus Christ returns at the Second Coming, according to Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, and 64 as well as Revelation 18:21 - yet the prophecies also speak of a fire judgment that takes one hour for Babylon's destruction and it happens at the time the A/C comes to power in that same 'one hour' that the 10 horns vote power to him in Revelation 17:12-17.

So that, Babylon has two judgments, one by fire in one hour, leaving her a desert for an undetermined time frame. then at the 2nd coming - Rev 16:17-21 indicates a second judgment on Babylon at the 2nd Coming. The result is that Babylon is to be found no more ever.

If Jerusalem were actually "T-H-E" Babylon - then Jerusalem would be destroyed, never to be rebuilt and unable to fulfill the prophecies during the Tribulation period and unable to fulfill the role as the seat of the throne of Christ during the Millennial reign of Christ, because Jerusalem is the capital city of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. So the idea that Babylon is Jerusalem negates the Messianic, Millennial prophecies. Some think a new Jerusalem comes down from heaven, and it does, but only after the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years and the old earth is destroyed and a new heaven and new Earth come down, i.e. the New Jerusalem.

The moral here is don't confuse the "New Jerusalem" as a replacement for a Babylon.

Other factors also come into play, negating Jerusalem as the Babylon. including the fact that Babylon is the "last of the super-power nations (per Jeremiah 50-51) and Babylon is where all the world's leaders meet. It is also a land of abundant fresh waters Israel is not a fresh-water nation, and - Jeremiah tells us - Babylon is CITIES --- PLURAL. Babylon also has military forces/defenses that mount up into outer space. Also Jeremiah tells the Jews to flee out of Babylon and return to Zion and Jerusalem.

The "harlot" or "whore" concept is a reference to the chief goddess of ancient Babylon - goddess Ishtar aka Inanna who held the title in Babylon - given to her by her worshippers -- as the "Mother of the Harlots" because her religion was a "mystery" religion and promoted the concept of "Holy Sex" -- or salvation by sex.

The Ishtar goddess and her religion is what Revelation 17 is referencing. But who was Ishtar? According to Babylonian royal records she was one of the Anunnaki - the "benai hahelohim" of Genesis 6 who came down to Earth and messed with human DNA, creating a hybrid offspring race, called the Nephilim. --- Bottom line -- Ishtar was/is a fallen angel of high rank. She was the guardian angel of ancient Babylon... and according to Revelation 17, Ishtar, the Mother of the Harlots is the guardian angel of a super-power nation, which according to Revelation 18, and especially verses 11-13 indicates that this future super-power nation - the last of the super-powers - is also the Engine of Wealth for the world's economy and the place where world consumer goods prices are pegged and benchmarked.

As for the "blood" of prophets and saints... that is describing Ishtar, the fallen angel, primarily though also Rev 18:24 indicates that Babylon is responsible for all innocent murders from the time of the very first murder - Abel - based upon a special Greek verb tense - called a perfect participle. A perfect participle in Rev 18:24 indicates that the guilt of murder applies to the very first instance - which puts us back to Abel and all who come afterwards, and not just prophets and saints but of all those innocently killed.

Bottom line: Jerusalem fails to fit ALL the criteria of the prophetic passages, but especially the part about the Millennial reign aspects. Israel must be around to be The Kingdom of the Messiah, whose kingdom includes most of Iraq including ancient Babylon--- which also rules out the idea that Babylon is modern-day Iraq.

If you really want to get a handle on the complicated issues surrounding the attempts to identify a future Babylon, read the books - 2 volumes - "America, The Babylon" -- www.americathebabylon.com

and get the book through The A-O Report website -

www.aoreport.com

Nothing but men's theories. What we need more of are those willing to listen to God's simple Word and heed It instead of man...

Rev 17:1-3

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

(KJV)

Rev 17:18

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(KJV)

The Babylon harlot is not America. Nor is it the EU, nor any 10 nations of the G10, etc. It's what God's Word says it is, "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth." It is a particular 'city'. Not a nation, nor a group of nations. But a particular singular city.

All one need do is pay attention in Revelation to know the 'dragon' is at Jerusalem when he ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" who will appear there in Jerusalem (per Revelation 11).

[Ephesians2-8]

Celt,

You said:

Nothing but men's theories. What we need more of are those willing to listen to God's simple Word and heed It instead of man...

Allright then, you asked for it - you're going to get exactly God's Word, and His word is more than just Revelation 17 and 18 when it comes to the issue of a future "Babylon." Now let me show you the exact Greek term as underlined in the KJV above. My point is to negate your notion that "city" is the correct translation. Here is the exact Greek phrase in Greek letters.

Let me give it to you in the raw, original pristine exact terms of the Greek Text, just as John wrote it, in regards to Revelation 17:18

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

και η γυνη ην ειδες εστιν η πολις η μεγαλη η εχουσα βασιλειαν επι των βασιλεων της γης

Now let me narrow that verse down to just the key phrase: top line is the Greek, 2nd line is the English transliteration and the third line is the literal English word equivalent or as close as we can get.

η πολις η μεγαλη

hay polis hay megala

the city the super-power

In the Greek language and usage, a city can be used for just the city. Often times though, when combined with a superlative adjective, like "hey megala" - the adjective = η μεγαλη - when used in conjunction with = η πολις - refers to the empire or nation which the city resides in. Often times the capital city was used to refer to a nation. So just because the name "Carthage" was used didn't necessarily mean it referred to the empire of Carthage. Ditto for Athens, ditto for Rome or Babylon. HOWEVER -- when you add "η μεγαλη" to the term - that changes everything in terms of how the Greek-speaking world in the first century used the term. It generally referred to the nation or the empire itself.

Furthermore - the term -- η μεγαλη = hay megala is the word we use in English sometimes as "Mega" and or "Super"

IF you doubt me - check out Strong's Concordance and the Greek-English dictionary in the back. Look for code #3173 and the root word is "megas" - Now Strong's dictionary definitions are very skinny, sparse and very generic. Often times many words are multi-faceted in meaning. Strong's doesn't really elaborate much on such words. To get the elaborate definitions, you need to go to a full-blown "Lexicon"- and in this case, probably the best Lexicon with a definition on this word is Joseph Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. You'll find his definition on Page 394, column 2 by the Strong's Code # 3173. Thayer's definition runs a total of just over 2 columns or just over a full page of definition, notes and citations where the term's definitions were used and how. B-A-G-D's Greek-English Lexicon also provides a lengthy definition, as does Liddell & Scott which is a 2-volume dictionary and considered "THE" definitive dictionary for Greek to English.

The word Mega - means "Super" in power, size, scope when applied to something like a city and it conveys the idea of a nation by way of using its capital city or chief city.

So if you wanted to refer to the nation of Japan in the first century and if Tokyo was its capital or chief city, you might say "Tokyo, the polis the mega -- or Tokyo, the Great - if following the KJV translation model.

Now, in case your rebellious mind refuses to accept the above facts... let's move to another of God's prophecy passages dealing with this 'future Babylon' because you see, Revelation 17 and 18 is less than half of God's written words about a future Babylon, super-power nation that exists at the time of the Day of the Lord and the 2nd Coming.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 predict the demise of "mystery" Babylon only the term "mystery" is NOT used, just Babylon. Jeremiah is not the only prophet to give predictions on Babylon either. Isaiah in chapters 13, 14, and 47 also give parallel information that correlates to Revelation. However, for purposes pertaining to city versus nation -- let's look at Jeremiah

Jeremiah 51:43 states:

"Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land wherein no man dwelleth, neither doth any son of man pass thereby"

This verse describes God's judgment upon Babylon's cities... and on her land...

Let's look also at Jeremiah 50:32 speaking of the King of Babylon, God says...and I quote:

"And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him."

Notice the words -- "in his cities" indicating again more than just the city of Babylon but rather the whole nation.

Still not enough for you?????? Try Jeremiah 50:16a - a reference to her farmers and farms

"Cut off the sower from Babylon, and him that handleth the sickle in the time of harvest:"

I'll bet your still so stubborn that that is not good enough for you. Allright, now for the icing on the cake.

"Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert."

Key phrase here for our purposes -- "Hindermost of the nations" with hindermost being an archaic English word for "last"

The phrase is indicating that Babylon is the Last of the nations -- not a city of the nations but a nation among the nations, the last of the nations. Do you now get the idea that Babylon of future prophecy is a nation? NOOOOOO????

Well try this on for size.

Jeremiah 51:53 and tell me if any city on Earth has this...

"Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though she should fortify the height of her strength, yet from me shall spoilers come unto her, saith the LORD."

This verse indicates Babylon's military has outer space capabilities... "up to heaven" is a Hebrew word for the part of heaven that is close to earth but has no air... or in our modern term - Outer Space...or in Earth's orbit. Here Babylon has outer space military capabilities... NOW -- you name for me --- any city in the world - that has its own military and its own outer space military program.... Hmmm. Name one city. You can't. There are none. In fact, no city has its own army. Only nations have armies....

Sooooooooo - you're only hope here to defend yourself is to negate Jeremiah's chapters 50 and 51 as being the same Babylon as Revelation 17 and 18. You're only hope is to claim that these prophecies were fulfilled. Right??? Good try, but Wrong.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 are laced with Messianic Hebrew idioms, indicating that the entire description of events takes place at the time of the coming of Messiah - in the Day of the Lord... in the last days of the gentile era... How do we see this???

Look at Jeremiah 50:2

"Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken, Bel is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces."

The term "set up a standard" - is the Hebrew phrase gevlai shelmaschiach -- "Banner of the Messiah" or "standard" of the Messiah -- it is an obscure, abbreviated Messianic Hebrew idiom. It is an abbrevation for the Messianic prophecies indicating that when Messiah comes, the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel must meet Him and escort him thru the gates of Jerusalem. Now, in ancient Israel, the tribes and tribal leaders were scattered all over the nation. So Israel set up a series of "Flag" stations on hilltops to wave a special flag of the Messiah. When it was waved, the signal man on the next hill picked up his Messianic flag and waved it -- and so on til the message was flashed across Israel that the Messiah was coming. This meant that the tribal leaders instantly dropped everything they were doing and headed for Jerusalem.

Now, if you're Jeremiah, how are you going to indicate that what you're writing about takes place when the Messiah is on His way so to speak, during The Day of the Lord? Answer - You use an abbreviated Hebrew idiom that everyone in those days would understand and know what you're talking about. SO, he used that phrase "gevlai" - to set up a standard or banner or in this case it meant - to set up the Messiah's flag -- indicative that all that follows takes place during this time frame.

Now -- you might argue though that Jeremiah 50 and 51 took place in 539 B.C. when Persian conquered Babylon. You can argue that point -- but you're wrong -- because Persia never destroyed Babylon in one day and Babylon was never uninhabited after Persia's conquest. Instead, Babylon became Persia's capital. Persia never burned Babylon to the ground nor did Persian obliterate the nation and its farmlands nor did Persia make Babylonia uninhabited as Isaiah 13:19-21 describes.

Nor did the ocean waves come up over Babylon and sink her to the seabed, as Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, and 64 describe.

The prophecies of Jeremiah 50 and 51 have never been fulfilled, yet.

There are even more indications in Jeremiah's prophecies indicating Babylon of the future is a nation, not a mere city, but I've gone on long enough.

As for the Babylon harlot not being America, you're right, sorta, but then I never said she was. I stated as have others. like R.A. Coombes in his books "America, The Babylon" Vols 1 and 2 - that the woman is the chief goddess of Babylon by the personal name of Inanna or Ishtar, depending on either the early or late dialect version of the same person. Ishtar was given many titles by her worshippers -- among them the title "MOTHRER OF THE HARLOTS" and Goddess of Liberty/Freedom and Godess of Immigrants as well as Goddess of Justice, Goddess of War, Goddess of Love, Goddess of Fertility, etc etc.

I think in another post here I went into more detail about her religion being a mystery religion in which her priestesses were called "holy whores" or "holy harlots" and engaged in religious, ritual sex with a worshipper so that they could be purified of their sins and have salvation by sex. Holy Sex. A Ishtar Harlot was holy, sinless and pure in the eyes of Babylonians. It was the highest honor a woman could achieve. Ishtar's religion invented the idea of money, and banking and loaning money at interest. On New years eve the King would go to the temple to have holy sex with the chief high priestess. The goddess would possess the priestesses body and the king and the goddess would become one together. IF the king failed to please the goddess sexually, the nation would suffer crop failures and the king would be eliminated and a new king chosen. During the New Year's ceremony, the temple's worshippers would gather outside and throw a big drunken orgy to urge the king on.

Travelling merchants routinely engaged in holy sex as part of their business routine to obtain blessings from Ishtar.

Also, Ishtar's religion was called a "mystery" religion with numerous "mystery" or 'secret' doctrines. One of which we know concerned her crown of 7 horns or spikes. These spikes, according to the 'mystery' functioned to reflect the occult enlightenment of Ishtar's brother, the sun-god Utu (aka Shamash) upon each of the 7 "hora" or large landmasses or 7 continents and 7 seas of the Earth.

Revelation 17:9 - the woman sits on 7 "hora" as the Greek word puts it. KJV translates it as mountains. Liddell & Scott's Lexicon notes that the word in its root form means large land mass and could be used for continents, mountain or dessert, but not for a hill. The verse is quoting Ishtar's mystery doctrine of her crown and telling us her influence was global as covering the 7 continents. The Greeks who worshipped Ishtar used that same word "hora" in that mystery doctrine.

Today, the crown of the Statue of Liberty, according to the National Park Service serves to reflect the enlightenment of the statue's brother the sun god on the 7 continents and 7 seas. The statue's sculptor, a freemason- Frecerick Bartholdi wrote in his notes that the statue was his artistic rendering of the Roman Goddess Libertas...

Some background - the Roman Goddess Libertas was a prostitute religion focused solely on the sexual liberty of the mystery religion they borrowed from the Greeks whom they called Astarte or Aphrodite -- and they borrowed or adopted her religion from Babylon where she was called Ishtar, Mother of the Harlots and Goddess of Liberty. Soooooooo the Statue of Liberty is the largest idol ever made with human hands and it represents a likeness of THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS.

Another Freemason sculptor, Thomas Crawford did his own version of the Roman goddess Libertas, and called her the goddess of Freedom - which stands atop the capitol dome in Washington, D.C. - The capitol building itself was originally named "Temple of the goddess of Liberty" by the Founding Fathers, Ben Franklin and George Washington, both of whom were mastermasons.

The Capitol was consecrated in an occult Masonic ceremony in a cornerstone laying to give occult blessing to the building. The 2nd most popular temple in all of Babylon was the temple of the sun-god Utu/Shamash - brother of Ishtar - his temple's name -- The White House. According to David Ovason in his recent book, "The Secret Architecture of our Nation's Capital" Ovason takes 500+ pages with 150+pages of documented footnotes to prove and conclude that the city of Washington, D.C. is an open-air temple of Ishtar because she is the guardian angel of the nation. Constitution Avenue lines up with Ishtar's home star, Sirius in her constellation Virgo (she's called the perpetual virgin) and Constitution Avenue lines up with Sirious on every Spring and Autumnal equinox. -- Washington, D.C. is more Babylonian than ancient Babylon ever was. Washington is the most occult city ever built.

All of that is just for starters -- the tip of the iceberg of America being the Babylon of prophecy.

Clearly, Revelation 17 is referencing Ishtar and no one or nothing else and the fact that she is the guardian angel of a super power nation at the end of the gentile age going into the Day of the Lord.

Jerusalem - cannot be the Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. because if this were so, it would negate the Messianic prophecies of the Millennial kingdom, because the Earthly Jerusalem is the capital city of the Messiah and thus it cannot be destroyed as the Babylon prophecies indicate because Babylon will never be rebuilt, never inhabited and sinks below the ocean.

The New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven, does so AFTER the millenial reign of Christ and the final battle with Satan and AFTER Eternity begins or as Eternity begins. So any notion that present day Jerusalem is Babylon is beyond laughable, but outright blasphemy and an attempt to negate God's Word.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You also said....

The Babylon harlot is not America. Nor is it the EU, nor any 10 nations of the G10, etc. It's what God's Word says it is, "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth." It is a particular 'city'. Not a nation, nor a group of nations. But a particular singular city.

All one need do is pay attention in Revelation to know the 'dragon' is at Jerusalem when he ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" who will appear there in Jerusalem (per Revelation 11).

[Celt]

That "great city" in Rev.11:8 is Jerusalem as written, for we are told it is where our Lord Jesus was crucified.

Rev 11:8

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

(KJV)

Rev 17:18

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(KJV)

That Greek word 'polis' is ALWAYS translated to city in the KJV Bible New Testament. It's a city per the Biblical context, and it's a city per the Greek word 'polis'. To assign a different meaning to it shows the confusion of men's doctrines.

Comparing that "great city" phrase as used starting in Rev.11:8 throughout Revelation to the last usage in Rev.21 is for a CONTRAST, for there can only be ONE TRUE KINGDOM and ONE HOLY CITY FROM GOD, and that's to be the New Jerusalem that will descend from Heaven down to this earth as written. The interpretation is that false ones want to create today's Jerusalem as a copy of God's Holy City. That's what the coming false worship in Jerusalem is going to be about during the "great tribulation". The idea is in the same sense as Lucifer being called a morning star in Isaiah 14, which the KJV translators chose to put "Lucifer" in their translation instead of 'O day starre' which they put out in the margin of the 1st edtion KJV. Satan WANTS to be GOD and tries to take His Titles too, as Deut. 32 shows about the contrast between a false "rock" and The True "Rock" (The LORD). That "great city" phrase is showing the same idea in Revelation, as in final the only "great city" will be The Holy City coming down from God out of Heaven to the earth.

The failure of many to understand that shows they've forgotten what Satan's original rebellion against God is all about. They need to study Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 again, and get up to speed on how Paul was revealing that false working by Satan also in 2 Thessalonians 2 with Satan as that son of perdition coming in the last days to sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That idea from Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14, and 2 Thess.2 are linked as to Satan wanting to be God and worshipped in place of God.

[John3;16]

Celt

You have not addressed the fact that Babylon is destroyed and Jerusalem will enter into the Millennium, and continue for the thousand years, the New Jerusalem does not appear until after the Millennium period is finished. Mystery Babylon which is a city, but if you look at her history she has seduced the kings and rulers throughout history, she rides upon the back of the beast with seven heads indicating that she is trying to control the beast, also since the beast with seven heads is a picture of seven kingdoms five prior to the Apostle Johns vision, one that was in existence during the vision (Roman Empire) and the seventh to follow in the last days during the tribulation period. The great city is also a harlot, indicating that she is a counterfeit religion, as you have noted and as scripture attests

God referred to Jerusalem as a harlot when they fell into idol worship. This reinforces the fact that Babylon is a counterfeit system of religion. The false prophet will head up this false religion. The Antichrist will be a political leader, he will head up the ten nations, and eventually move to world leader.

[givennewname]

The tribulation period is for judgment of non believers and those who are persecuting Gods elect, the believers, which those who believe in a Pre-trib rapture believe that these believers mentioned here are

saved during the tribulation and are killed for their belief.

..but if there is a pre-trib rapture, who's going to be left to persecute? :noidea:

The answer is rather obvoius dear brother..

The tribulation is described by Prophet Jeremiah as the time of Jacob's trouble, therefore, the ones who are persecuted are unbelieving Jews whom the Lord will use the times of trouble to bring them to his fold.

Jesus has been promised the throne of DAvid which he will claim at the second coming, therefore he must have a flock of true Jewish believers.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds; and strangers shall no more make him their bondman;

[givennewname]

i dont think the rapture is true. why would it be a tribulation at all if we wont be here? will the enemys people have tribulation? and if so who will be tribulizing them. the enemy? only christians have tribulation.

the rapture didnt come on the scene until 1830/1830ish. thats A.D. not B.C. margret mcdonald is the womans name who invented this. the word rapture isnt even in the bible. but dont take my word on this. study to shew thyself approved.

he who endureth until the end shall recieve eternal life.

it is my belief that what the bible refers to as the great falling away is going to be christians who believe in this rapture and when the antichrist is come will decieve people by saying he is Christ. he cant decieve them by saying im the devil and poke you with his sceptre. he will say brother, i am the Almighty. i love you. watch my miracles.

amos 5:18 Woe <01945> unto you that desire <0183> (8693) the day <03117> of the LORD <03068>! to what end <04100> is it for you? the day <03117> of the LORD <03068> is darkness <02822>, and not light <0216>.

editied:

when i said i dont believe the rapture is true i got ahead of myself. the word rapture comes from the greek word rapturo. it is translated as caught up( in the clouds) what i meant to say was pre-tribulation rapture. the elect will indeed be here. read the scripture. trust no man not even the priests. read Gods word for yourself and pray for understanding .

Dar brother,

I don't think you disbelieve the rapture as the rapture is solid biblical teaching found in

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

1Th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

the term caught up is rapturo in latin from which the word rapture comes from. It represents our hope of resurrection without going through physical death..

What i think u object to i think is the concept of a pretribultional rapture, thats ok.. a pretribulational rapture is not set in stone. Well lots of evidence from the scriptures are present for the pre tribulational rapture but this is not the forum for it.

I entreat you to study the scriptures and keep an open mind on it..

[givennewname]

The tribulation period is for judgment of non believers and those who are persecuting Gods elect, the believers, which those who believe in a Pre-trib rapture believe that these believers mentioned here are

saved during the tribulation and are killed for their belief.

..but if there is a pre-trib rapture, who's going to be left to persecute? :noidea:

The answer is rather obvoius dear brother..

The tribulation is described by Prophet Jeremiah as the time of Jacob's trouble, therefore, the ones who are persecuted are unbelieving Jews whom the Lord will use the times of trouble to bring them to his fold.

Jesus has been promised the throne of DAvid which he will claim at the second coming, therefore he must have a flock of true Jewish believers.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds; and strangers shall no more make him their bondman;

No, the answer is not obvoius. The passage in Jeremiah does not refer to some far future, yet-to-be-experienced, end-time tribulation. In chapter 30, Jeremiah is reaffirming the promise of Deuteronomy 30:1-10:

"When all these things have happened to you, the blessings and the curses that I have set before you, if you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, and return to the Lord your God, and you and your children obey him with all your heart and with all your soul, just as I am commanding you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, gathering you again from all the peoples among whom the Lord your God has scattered you. Even if you are exiled to the ends of the world, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will bring you back. The Lord your God will bring you into the land that your ancestors possessed, and you will possess it; he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. Moreover, the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live. The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies and on the adversaries who took advantage of you. Then you shall again obey the Lord, observing all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and the Lord your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all your undertakings, in the fruit of your body, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the Lord will again take delight in prospering you, just as he delighted in prospering your ancestors, when you obey the Lord your God by observing his commandments and decrees that are written in this book of the law, because you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

You've quoted Jeremiah out of context and argued retroactively. Chapters 30 and 31 are a single oracle restating God's promise to restore Israel contingent upon Israel's repentance for breaking the covenant. The passage is a reaffirmation of God's commitment to the covenant with Israel. It has nothing to do with the end of the world.

Oh no brother.. I have not quoted Jeremiah out of context if you read it carefully..

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds; and strangers shall no more make him their bondman;

Jer 30:9 but they shall serve Jehovah their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith Jehovah; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be quiet and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.

Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith Jehovah, to save thee: for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have scattered thee, but I will not make a full end of thee; but I will correct thee in measure, and will in no wise leave thee unpunished.

The context of the few verses is in Jer 30:8 in that day usually a term reserved for the end times.

Jer 30 verse 9 says that in that day they (the Jews) will serve Jehovah and David whom God will raise unto them.. Historically at the time of Jeremiah, Josiah is king and David has been dead 5 centuries ago. Therefore this David mentioned is Jesus who is from the branch of David.. God says he will raise David, if it was referring to King David, God had set him as king in the past and does not use the future tense.. this prophecy has never been fulfilled in the return of the Jews from Babylon as the monarchy from the line of David has never been restored.

Again Jeremiah 30:10-11 sets the context. The Jews have never been at quiet and ease, certainly not on return from Babylon because they were scattered again by the Romans. Again verse 11 has never been fulfilled and will only be fulfilled in the last days at the millennial kingdom at Christ's second coming when he comes king of the Jews..

Whether you take scriptures literally or figuratively, the time of Jacob's trouble whom Jesus refers to in Luke's gospels refers to the tribulation period.

[Celt]

Celt

You have not addressed the fact that Babylon is destroyed and Jerusalem will enter into the Millennium, and continue for the thousand years, the New Jerusalem does not appear until after the Millennium period is finished. Mystery Babylon which is a city, but if you look at her history she has seduced the kings and rulers throughout history, she rides upon the back of the beast with seven heads indicating that she is trying to control the beast, also since the beast with seven heads is a picture of seven kingdoms five prior to the Apostle Johns vision, one that was in existence during the vision (Roman Empire) and the seventh to follow in the last days during the tribulation period. The great city is also a harlot, indicating that she is a counterfeit religion, as you have noted and as scripture attests

God referred to Jerusalem as a harlot when they fell into idol worship. This reinforces the fact that Babylon is a counterfeit system of religion. The false prophet will head up this false religion. The Antichrist will be a political leader, he will head up the ten nations, and eventually move to world leader.

In Matthew 24, Christ told His Apostles while on the Mount of Olives that not one stone would be standing on top of another while looking at the Temple and associated buildings. His Apostles understood that to mean the time of His second coming by the question they then asked in verse 3. Peter said the day of The Lord at Christ's coming would include the removing of men's order on the earth, with the elements (man's works) being burned up (2 Pet.3:10). The end of Hebrews 12 gives the same kind of Message about the end of this world age. Ezekiel 40 forward which are Milennium chapters, reveal a layout in that area of the Holy Land that has never been, including a specific Temple that is different than any previous one built in Jerusalem. Many have also missed Ezekiel 47 and the many trees on each side of the River that comes out from the south side of the altar. That's Milennium timing, but it's the same description as Rev.22:1-2 about those trees and the River. How will that come on the earth where Jerusalem is today? That will come when Christ begins His "thousand years" Milennium reign on earth, but how will it manifest on earth? It's impossible to compare today's Jerusalem layout with that future one that will manifest at Christ's coming. That difference is important, because the false one coming to Jerusalem in the near future will not be able to pull off those comparions to Ezekiel 40 forward.

In Rev.20:7 forward, the devil is loosed out of his pit prison after Christ's "thousand years" reign, and leads the nations one final time to come upon the "beloved city" and "camp of the saints" on earth. That "beloved city" and "camp of the saints" is where Christ and His elect priests will rule from during the Milennium. It's Jerusalem, but not the one of today, for as Jesus told His Apostles, there won't be one stone standing on top of another there at His second coming with the end of this world. Christ will bring in the Jerusalem described in Ezekiel, not the one man is trying to create during this world age.

In Zechariah 14 concerning Christ's literal return back to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, an earthquake will occur there that is compared to the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. In Rev.11 at the same hour God's "two witnesses" are resurrected in the streets of Jerusalem, a great earthquake is to occur there, killing 7,000 men, with a tenth part of the city falling. What part of Jerusalem do you think that will be, and why? Zechariah 14 says His servants will flee to that great valley formed with Christ's feet touching down on earth, as they fled during that earthquake in Uzziah's day. Does that hold a promising picture for the state of Jerusalem just prior to Christ's coming? No.

Instead, what does that show? It shows our Lord will be angry at an abomination going on in Jerusalem at the time of His return. It shows Jerusalem in a fallen state at the time of His return. Else why would He be angry enough to cause that great earthquake at His coming that will cause a tenth of the city to fall, and destroy 7,000 men, which obviously represent His enemies there in Jerusalem? There's a reason why Jerusalem is compared "spiritually" to Sodom and Egypt in that time of God's "two witnesses", per Rev.11:8.

Luke 23:27-31

27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'

31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

(KJV)

If that's how Jerusalem treated our Lord Jesus at His first coming, Himself representing the green tree in the sense of 'God with us' on earth at that time, then how would they act in the dry when The Lord is away and they are left to their own devices?

There's two 'beasts' given in Rev.13. The first is a kingdom or world system. But the second beast is about the false religion you speak of, and is specifically linked to the "dragon" which causes it with working great signs and wonders in the sight of men. Per our Lord in Rev.12:9 and 20:2, that "dragon" is another title for Satan himself. And like I pointed to before, there's a ten horn, seven head, seven crown beast system picture associated with Satan's original rebellion and fall per Rev.12:3-4.

I'm also well aware of how our Lord used the spiritual harlot metaphor back in the Old Testament, and His love for Jerusalem per Ezekiel 16. That should be all the more reason to see how false worship in Jerusalem in the last days is really going to make Him angry. I've already mentioned the spiritual harlot idea as applied to Jerusalem in a fallen state per Old Testament history in previous posts.

What is that 'beast' that ascends up out of the bottomless pit doing there in Jerusalem in the first place when he kills God's "two witnesses" and causes their bodies to lay in the street? (per Rev.11) Our Lord revealed plenty, if we would just listen to Him in His Word, and believe what He said.

I do not limit the 'ten horns' as being ten specific nations, especially when our Lord said in Rev.17:15 that the 'waters' represent peoples, nations, tongues, and multitudes in the whole earth sense. And, since the "another beast" is to cause the whole earth to bow in worship to the idol image he sets up. No nation on earth is going to be isolated during that time. The harlot city will sit in power over all nations, for Jerusalem has always been the center of focus, and will continue to be during the tribulation.

If one goes outside of God's Word with the 'ten horns' symbol, it's just as possible it could represent a future division of the earth into ten specific regions, which is more plausible than singling out ten nations certain groups of people don't like. At present, the plan globalists have shown for a "one world government" (their words, not mine), far outweighs unpopularity with a few nations in the West. World socialism that best fits the establishment of false religion is not something that originates in the West anyway, but that's exactly what certain globalist groups have proposed for all nations, not just ten nations.

Thus using the Babylon harlot symbol to point to ten nations in the West is fallacy, since our Lord Jesus showed that symbol is about a certain 'city' in a spiritually fallen state. The 'mystery' is that indeed it's about false religion, but false religion setup over a certain city on earth which God has great love for and has chosen to dwell forever. That mystery is of old, for it's about Satan wanting to steal God's Place and set himself up in Jerusalem instead. The "workers of iniquity" have worked towards that plan since the beginning, as the saved will fully understand after Christ's return.