The ten nations that the Anti-christ will rule?

[John3;16]

Celt:

[givennewname]

You've quoted Jeremiah out of context and argued retroactively. Chapters 30 and 31 are a single oracle restating God's promise to restore Israel contingent upon Israel's repentance for breaking the covenant. The passage is a reaffirmation of God's commitment to the covenant with Israel. It has nothing to do with the end of the worl

Okay, walk me through it because I'm not tracking with your line of thinki

Dear brother Rufus,

Greetings in the name of the Lord,

Okay, walk me through it because I'm not tracking with your line of thinking.

You've quoted Jeremiah out of context and argued retroactively. Chapters 30 and 31 are a single oracle restating God's promise to restore Israel contingent upon Israel's repentance for breaking the covenant. The passage is a reaffirmation of God's commitment to the covenant with Israel. It has nothing to do with the end of the world.

I will try to do my best.. English is not my first language so be patient with me.

I was trying to say that the time of Jacob's trouble refers not to the suffering encountered by the Jews during Jeremiah's time at the invasion of the Babylonians and subsequent exile to Babylon but to the end time 7 year tribulation period where they will experience tremendous persecution alluded to by the Lord Jesus himself in Matt and Luke.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Why does the passage in Jer 30:7-11 refer to the end times and not to the troubles of the Jews at Jeremiah's time?

well lets examine the scriptures verse by verse.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds; and strangers shall no more make him their bondman;

Jer 30:7 and 8 refers to the time of Jacob's trouble as that day and not this day. That day signifies a day of future fulfillment. If he has said this day of troubles, then we could apply that prophecy to the time of Jeremiah giving the prophecy, hence the fulfillment in the Babylonian siege of the city. That day=future, this =present.

Verse 7 also says: but he shall be saved out of it. We know from history that the Jews from Jeremiah's time were not saved from the siege and deportation to Babylon. in Fact many Jews died and were sold as slaves including righteous ones like Daniel and Ezekiel. So that prophecy could not refer to the Jews of Jeremiah's time and must then be fulfilled in the future.

Again verse 8- And it shall come to pass in that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds; and strangers shall no more make him their bondman;, this deliverance had never been fulfilled and i cannot think of an occasion where it could be applied to Isreal. This can only be fulfilled at the second coming of the Lord when he delivers Jerusalem for eternity.

now verse 9 is the crucial verse in telling us the timing of fulfillment of the prophecy given by Jeremiah 30.

Jer 30:9 but they shall serve Jehovah their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Again note the word shall and will in verse 9. Shall indicate a time future to when Jeremiah gave the prophecy. The king who reign in Judah when Jeremiah had his ministry was King Josiah and the 3 subsequent useless king of Johiokim, Johiachin and Zedekiah. David has long died 5 centuries ago during the time Jeremiah gave this prophecy. Why should God use the word shall serve and will raise up when David had died 5 centuries ago? shouldn't God say had already raised David in the past? the answer is either he shall raise David in the millenail kingdom to rule again or he will raise some one from the branch of David to rule in the future. The second option would be my intrepretation of this verse.. Even if the verse mean the original David, the verse does not fit fulfillment in the past David reign as the people never fully serve David nor Jehovah in the regin of king David. Many rebellions to David's rule occured and David himself rebelled against Jehovah by his adultery and census of his people.

Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith Jehovah; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be quiet and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.

Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith Jehovah, to save thee: for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have scattered thee, but I will not make a full end of thee; but I will correct thee in measure, and will in no wise leave thee unpunished

Vesrse 10-111 similarly had never been fulfilled throughout the history of the Jews. Some may say that the Jews were restored to the land after the babylonian cativity and in 1948, but they have at no time lived in quiet ease and peace as one can see from the events of the Maccabees rebellion, subsequent Roman rule and dispersion and most recently the Hamas troubles. The only time when the Jews will be at peace would be at the second coming of the Lord Jesus.

In conclusion,

You've quoted Jeremiah out of context and argued retroactively. Chapters 30 and 31 are a single oracle restating God's promise to restore Israel contingent upon Israel's repentance for breaking the covenant. The passage is a reaffirmation of God's commitment to the covenant with Israel. It has nothing to do with the end of the world.

Yes the exile and the troubles of the Jews during the times of Jeremiah are as a consequence to breaking the covenant of Deuteronomy 30:1-10: but the point that i am making is that the description of :the time of Jacob's trouble" refer to the end times 7 year tribulation period and i did not quote Jer 30 out of context.. if the scriptures are studied carefully. the grammar and future tense of Jer 30 7-11 indicate a end time fulfillment of prophecy.

In his Love,

Seet

[givennewname]

Hence your original question as to who would be persecuted if all the chrisitans are removed in a pretribulational rapture??

Answer is Jewish believers who come to faith in Christ as a result of the ministry of the two witnesses during the Times of Jacob's Trouble (7 year tribulation period) as prophesied in Jer 30:7-11)

[Ephesians2-8]

Rufus,

To perhaps clarify the points about Jeremiah's references to the future. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used Hebrew "Messianic idioms" - often times abbreviated to the point that the English translators simply could not properly translate the abbreviated idioms without making the English text excessively wordy and or grammatically incorrect.

Often times, the Hebrew Messianic idiom, "the Day of the Lord" was written by its known abbreviation of that era, such as "that Day" being a reference to "The Day of the Lord" or to the day of the Banner of the Messiah, or "gevlai shel maschiach" or sometimes just simply - "gevlai" as in "wave" or "raise" the banner. Such abbreviated Messianic idioms were well known to the rabbis and various rabbinical commentators from the 2nd and 3rd century B.C. made notes of these abbreviations.

[givennewname]

Rufus,

To perhaps clarify the points about Jeremiah's references to the future. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used Hebrew "Messianic idioms" - often times abbreviated to the point that the English translators simply could not properly translate the abbreviated idioms without making the English text excessively wordy and or grammatically incorrect.

Often times, the Hebrew Messianic idiom, "the Day of the Lord" was written by its known abbreviation of that era, such as "that Day" being a reference to "The Day of the Lord" or to the day of the Banner of the Messiah, or "gevlai shel maschiach" or sometimes just simply - "gevlai" as in "wave" or "raise" the banner. Such abbreviated Messianic idioms were well known to the rabbis and various rabbinical commentators from the 2nd and 3rd century B.C. made notes of these abbreviations.

I agree. MAny times in the writings of the prophet, the term in that day or The day of the Lord or the day of the Lor'd vengence refer to the end times.

[givennewname]

Rufus,

To perhaps clarify the points about Jeremiah's references to the future. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used Hebrew "Messianic idioms" - often times abbreviated to the point that the English translators simply could not properly translate the abbreviated idioms without making the English text excessively wordy and or grammatically incorrect.

Often times, the Hebrew Messianic idiom, "the Day of the Lord" was written by its known abbreviation of that era, such as "that Day" being a reference to "The Day of the Lord" or to the day of the Banner of the Messiah, or "gevlai shel maschiach" or sometimes just simply - "gevlai" as in "wave" or "raise" the banner. Such abbreviated Messianic idioms were well known to the rabbis and various rabbinical commentators from the 2nd and 3rd century B.C. made notes of these abbreviations.

I agree. Many times in the writings of the prophet, the term in that day or The day of the Lord or the day of the Lor'd vengence refer to the end times.

However, an appeal to grammar does not justify making a quantum leap to the conclusion that Jeremiah, et. al. were making esoteric predictions about events that were to take place thousands of years in their future. Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. Their concern was enforcing the covenant among the people of their time.

Not so brother Rufus. As we know, Jeremiah and Isaiah and other prophets are full of messianic prophecies regarding the first and second coming of the Lord.

I remember the Lord Jesus proving the resurrection to the Sadducees just based on the sentence I am the God of Abraham..

The verses in Jer 307-11 would not make sense seen in immediate fulfillment of Jeremiah's time, either from the Grammar nor the fact the the Jews are delivered and the promise of a future King David.

[Guest]

However, an appeal to grammar does not justify making a quantum leap to the conclusion that Jeremiah, et. al. were making esoteric predictions about events that were to take place thousands of years in their future. Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. Their concern was enforcing the covenant among the people of their time.

Say What!

However

Any Honest Appeal To The Plain Truth About The Bible

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

Tells Believers That Jeremiah, et. al. Were But Holy Men Of God Recording God's Intents

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:21-22

For The Conclusion Of The Whole Matter And The Earth And Everything God Desires His Kids To Know

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

Leading Us To The Part All Men Must Play In The Prophesies, Either To Accept The Grace Of God And Confess Jesus

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10

Or To Reject His Word And The Coming City Made Without Hands And To Stay The Way They Were

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:35-36

To Reject The Holy SON And To Stay Earth Dwellers And To Be Condemned

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Mark 13:31-33

Or Trust God And Believe The Bible And Know Jesus Christ

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

And Believe The Prophets And The Law

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.

For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.

Jeremiah 31:3-6

Maranatha!

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

[givennewname]

Rufus,

To perhaps clarify the points about Jeremiah's references to the future. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used Hebrew "Messianic idioms" - often times abbreviated to the point that the English translators simply could not properly translate the abbreviated idioms without making the English text excessively wordy and or grammatically incorrect.

Often times, the Hebrew Messianic idiom, "the Day of the Lord" was written by its known abbreviation of that era, such as "that Day" being a reference to "The Day of the Lord" or to the day of the Banner of the Messiah, or "gevlai shel maschiach" or sometimes just simply - "gevlai" as in "wave" or "raise" the banner. Such abbreviated Messianic idioms were well known to the rabbis and various rabbinical commentators from the 2nd and 3rd century B.C. made notes of these abbreviations.

I agree. Many times in the writings of the prophet, the term in that day or The day of the Lord or the day of the Lor'd vengence refer to the end times.

However, an appeal to grammar does not justify making a quantum leap to the conclusion that Jeremiah, et. al. were making esoteric predictions about events that were to take place thousands of years in their future. Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. Their concern was enforcing the covenant among the people of their time.

Not so brother Rufus. As we know, Jeremiah and Isaiah and other prophets are full of messianic prophecies regarding the first and second coming of the Lord.

I remember the Lord Jesus proving the resurrection to the Sadducees just based on the sentence I am the God of Abraham..

The verses in Jer 307-11 would not make sense seen in immediate fulfillment of Jeremiah's time, either from the Grammar nor the fact the the Jews are delivered and the promise of a future King David.

However, Jeremiah 30:7-11 is not a messianic prediction. It is a restatement of Deuteronomy 30:1-10, a reminder to the Israelites of Jeremiah's day of the conditions of the covenant made during the time of Moses.

Jeremiah 30:7-11 is a Messianic prophecy for the reasons i have presented.. I wouldn't go the whole 9 miles again.. Jer 30: 7-11 cannot be applied to conditions during the Babylonian seige, mainly because God says he will raise up David who have been dead for 500 years earlier. Maybe brother Rufus can tell me the reasons why he is so convinced that Jer 307-11 is a restatement of Deutero 30:1-10 based on the verses Jer 30:7-11?? Were the Jews saved from captivity to babylon or were the Jews saved in a allogorical sense?

[givennewname]

There are two issues here. If brother Rufus says that the events of the seige and all the terrible things that happened at the fall of Jerusalem is as a consequence of the Jews not obeying Deuteronomy 30:1-10, I would agree wholely with that statement.

However Jer 30 and the term Jacob's trouble refer to the 7 year tribulation period for all the reasons presented. Even the Lord Jesus says that Jerusalem will suffer another seige, a worse even than that had happened under the Babylonians but according to Jer 30:7 & 8, they will be delivered in the future end time at the second coming of the Lord because he himself will come deliver them unlike the Babylonian seige..

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Edited August 4, 2008 by givennewname

[Ephesians2-8]

Rufus,

To perhaps clarify the points about Jeremiah's references to the future. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used Hebrew "Messianic idioms" - often times abbreviated to the point that the English translators simply could not properly translate the abbreviated idioms without making the English text excessively wordy and or grammatically incorrect.

Often times, the Hebrew Messianic idiom, "the Day of the Lord" was written by its known abbreviation of that era, such as "that Day" being a reference to "The Day of the Lord" or to the day of the Banner of the Messiah, or "gevlai shel maschiach" or sometimes just simply - "gevlai" as in "wave" or "raise" the banner. Such abbreviated Messianic idioms were well known to the rabbis and various rabbinical commentators from the 2nd and 3rd century B.C. made notes of these abbreviations.

I agree. MAny times in the writings of the prophet, the term in that day or The day of the Lord or the day of the Lor'd vengence refer to the end times.

However, an appeal to grammar does not justify making a quantum leap to the conclusion that Jeremiah, et. al. were making esoteric predictions about events that were to take place thousands of years in their future. Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. Their concern was enforcing the covenant among the people of their time.

Rufus - the rules of hermeneutics require grammatical understanding and recognition whether the hermeneutical principles pertain to Biblical writings or in modern day contractual law.

There is no, repeat NO quantum leap in Jeremiah 30:7-8 or any of the other verses in that chapter. The prophets used Hebrew Messianic idioms extensively. You apparently have no understanding of the Mishnah or the Midrash nor the long traditional of rebbinical analysis of the prophet's writings or you'd know better than to make such a statement as you've made.

Furthermore ... Jeremiah 30:2 ... Jeremiah is told to write down what God had spoken to him. Jeremiah did not pick and choose only ideas that pertained to the near future. In fact, Jeremiah chose nothing of his own. He wrote down what he was told by God to write down.

Now as for proving statements - prove your statement - "Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. "

Prove that statement- Prove it. I want factual documentation to validate your point. The fact of the matter is that you cannot because there can be no such documentation. You've jumped to conclusions based on erroneous presuppositions and misrepresentations of the facts. The facts are - the text is littered with Messianic idioms and statements that pertain to the time of the coming of Messiah, not mere decades.

Rufus - why do I get the sense that you are nothing but a troll who takes great delight in debating and arguing for the sole purpose and delight of debating and arguing.

Personally, I see no valid reason to continue discussing the matter with someone who clearly can not accept or understand valid hermeneutical principles.