Left Behind - will there be a "Rapture"?

[Massorite]

I have been a Christian for a while. I have never heard of a "secret rapture." I have heard of the rapture, but in no way will it be secret. Everyone will know we are gone. And there will be enough pseudo-Christians left behind to realize what has happened and be witness thereof.

You have never heard of the secret rapture because it is not spoken of in the bible and is a false teachng. The concept came about when a woman named Margret MacDonold claimed she had some visions after being sick and bed ridden for many months. I have a copy of the letter she wrote to a Mr Edward Irving who was a pastor in 1830. I could put it in this post if you would like. Or better yet if you would like I start a new topic with it.

[Rick-Parker]

I have been a Christian for a while. I have never heard of a "secret rapture." I have heard of the rapture, but in no way will it be secret. Everyone will know we are gone. And there will be enough pseudo-Christians left behind to realize what has happened and be witness thereof.

You have never heard of the secret rapture because it is not spoken of in the bible and is a false teachng. The concept came about when a woman named Margret MacDonold claimed she had some visions after being sick and bed ridden for many months. I have a copy of the letter she wrote to a Mr Edward Irving who was a pastor in 1830. I could put it in this post if you would like. Or better yet if you would like I start a new topic with it.

That's quite alright. I'm not interested in some lunatic's delusional writings.

[JIME]

I am what people call an "Amillenialist", and believe that the End Times spoken of in Revelation is a figurative way of describing events that are happening now - eg, we re already in the Millenium and Satan is now chained and bound because Jesus' death and resurrection have defeated the effects of sin - so though Satan can influence the world, his power is ultimately chained together.

We are not yet living in the time that Revelation speaks about. These are the birth pangs that Christ spoke of.

Mark 13:8 (NLT)

"Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in many parts of the world, as well as famines. But this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come."

And also the anti-christ has not been revealed. He is not in power over the whole world!!

Dan 8:23-25 (NKJV)

23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes.

24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.

25 "Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means.

2 Thess 2:3-8 (NLT)

3 Don

[ParanoidAndroid]

I hope you can see what I am talking about. All these things I have mentioned are prophetic and haven't happened yet, Praise God!!! Before any of these things take place, the rapture will take place. This is were we as beleivers meet Jesus in the air. He doesn't come all the way to earth at this point. Then the 7 years of tribulation happen. At the end of the tribulation, Christ comes back to earth for a second time, this time to Rule and Reign FOREVER!!! Praise God and Glory to Jesus!!!

I can see where you're coming from (though the large and different font/colour sizes are quite distracting at times). But I think that the prophecies of Revelation are far too generalised and symbolic to be truly meaningful in understanding End Times. THe anti-Christ, for example:

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour! - 1 John 2:18.

There are many anti-Christs (all who are against Christ - anti (against) Christ). i don't see there will be one anti-Christ who will rule the world, rather many. For me, the moment Jesus died and resurrected, he overcame the power of Satan. He in effect bound Satan's abilities. though he can (and still does) interact with the world, the effect of sin is symbolically "chained" just as predicted in Revelation. As such, we are now in the End Times. I suggest taking a quick read of Amillenialism and how as an Amillenialist in view already believes Jesus' death conquered Satan and we are already living in a spiritual "millenium" of peace in Christ.

Revelation is just way too symbolic for me to take literally word-for-word, filled with imagery, figurative language, descriptive terms. I'm always happy to discuss various points of view and am very interested in hearing other points of view on Eschatology, but when it comes down to it, I have come to what I feel is "right", though I admit I could be wrong on this, but even if I am, it's what I consider a "non-essential doctrine" - unless of course, people start disappearing, in which case I hope I'll be one of those that get caught up (after all, not believing in the Rapture does not necessarily disqualify one from it, lol

All the best, JIME

~ Paranoid Android

[Xan]

I have been a Christian for a while. I have never heard of a "secret rapture." I have heard of the rapture, but in no way will it be secret. Everyone will know we are gone. And there will be enough pseudo-Christians left behind to realize what has happened and be witness thereof.

You have never heard of the secret rapture because it is not spoken of in the bible and is a false teachng. The concept came about when a woman named Margret MacDonold claimed she had some visions after being sick and bed ridden for many months. I have a copy of the letter she wrote to a Mr Edward Irving who was a pastor in 1830. I could put it in this post if you would like. Or better yet if you would like I start a new topic with it.

I would be interested, Massorite.

[Xan]

I hope you can see what I am talking about. All these things I have mentioned are prophetic and haven't happened yet, Praise God!!! Before any of these things take place, the rapture will take place. This is were we as beleivers meet Jesus in the air. He doesn't come all the way to earth at this point. Then the 7 years of tribulation happen. At the end of the tribulation, Christ comes back to earth for a second time, this time to Rule and Reign FOREVER!!! Praise God and Glory to Jesus!!!

I can see where you're coming from (though the large and different font/colour sizes are quite distracting at times). But I think that the prophecies of Revelation are far too generalised and symbolic to be truly meaningful in understanding End Times. THe anti-Christ, for example:

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour! - 1 John 2:18.

There are many anti-Christs (all who are against Christ - anti (against) Christ). i don't see there will be one anti-Christ who will rule the world, rather many. For me, the moment Jesus died and resurrected, he overcame the power of Satan. He in effect bound Satan's abilities. though he can (and still does) interact with the world, the effect of sin is symbolically "chained" just as predicted in Revelation. As such, we are now in the End Times. I suggest taking a quick read of Amillenialism and how as an Amillenialist in view already believes Jesus' death conquered Satan and we are already living in a spiritual "millenium" of peace in Christ.

Revelation is just way too symbolic for me to take literally word-for-word, filled with imagery, figurative language, descriptive terms. I'm always happy to discuss various points of view and am very interested in hearing other points of view on Eschatology, but when it comes down to it, I have come to what I feel is "right", though I admit I could be wrong on this, but even if I am, it's what I consider a "non-essential doctrine" - unless of course, people start disappearing, in which case I hope I'll be one of those that get caught up (after all, not believing in the Rapture does not necessarily disqualify one from it, lol

All the best, JIME

~ Paranoid Android

What keeps me from being an amillenialist is that we are not in a time of peace and sin is running rampant. This cannot be His reign. He would not lose such control over the wicked people of this earth.

[ParanoidAndroid]

What keeps me from being an amillenialist is that we are not in a time of peace and sin is running rampant. This cannot be His reign. He would not lose such control over the wicked people of this earth.

Perhaps. But personally speaking, the symbolic nature of the book of Revelation makes it impossible to make any kind of contribution to End Times Theory, indeed the figurative/symbolic language lends itself to a less literal application.

And as this was a thread I started, I think the lack of early Church history on this concept makes a pretty compellign argument that it doesn't exist. While not having early writings does not in itself prove that the Rapture does not exist, it does beg the question how such a concept could evade some of the most brilliant minds in Christiantiy for close to 1700 years. If you know what I mean. with a Symbolic view, all that happens, doesn't rely on one verse being absolutley proven true.

Since it is such a subjective book (Revelation, that is), I do admit I could be wrong, but as I mentioned once before, does it greatly matter if I'm wrong? Eschatology is one of those things that don't really affect me that great a deal. Comparing this to people who went into bomb-shelters uring the milennium, hoarding baked beans and spam before coming out Red-faced, and again when the worry of the 6/6/06 arrived, people again went into their bunkers, got that can opener ready.

Next on the list is the end of the Mayan Calender in 2012. Not to put too big a spin on it, but i think time migth have been beter spent by those hoarding baked beans looking at the word of God and searching how God wants us to act in the here and now,not how God might need us to act if a Rapture ever occurs.

Sorry, I'm ranting a little. I'll blame the lateness of the hour. I bid you all a good night, and see you all on the morrow.

[Xan]

What keeps me from being an amillenialist is that we are not in a time of peace and sin is running rampant. This cannot be His reign. He would not lose such control over the wicked people of this earth.

Perhaps. But personally speaking, the symbolic nature of the book of Revelation makes it impossible to make any kind of contribution to End Times Theory, indeed the figurative/symbolic language lends itself to a less literal application.

And as this was a thread I started, I think the lack of early Church history on this concept makes a pretty compellign argument that it doesn't exist. While not having early writings does not in itself prove that the Rapture does not exist, it does beg the question how such a concept could evade some of the most brilliant minds in Christiantiy for close to 1700 years. If you know what I mean. with a Symbolic view, all that happens, doesn't rely on one verse being absolutley proven true.

Since it is such a subjective book (Revelation, that is), I do admit I could be wrong, but as I mentioned once before, does it greatly matter if I'm wrong? Eschatology is one of those things that don't really affect me that great a deal. Comparing this to people who went into bomb-shelters uring the milennium, hoarding baked beans and spam before coming out Red-faced, and again when the worry of the 6/6/06 arrived, people again went into their bunkers, got that can opener ready.

Next on the list is the end of the Mayan Calender in 2012. Not to put too big a spin on it, but i think time migth have been beter spent by those hoarding baked beans looking at the word of God and searching how God wants us to act in the here and now,not how God might need us to act if a Rapture ever occurs.

Sorry, I'm ranting a little. I'll blame the lateness of the hour. I bid you all a good night, and see you all on the morrow.

Good night, PA. I agree fully with your position on where our focus should be.

[Rick-Parker]

What makes this an important/relative issue is that without the rapture, Christians will have to endure the tribulation and perhaps Armageddon. If I was a seeker, Christians would have a hard time explaining the need to change my life and accept Christ because there is no advantage over waiting till near death to do so. I can continue to sin without fear that Christ will come to take His children to heaven unexpectedly. After all, how can a God who loves us so much that he sent His Son to die for our sins be so cruel to make His children go through the same torment and torture that the unsaved will go through. So it is important to salvation whether we believe in the rapture and when/if it will occur.

[Xan]

What makes this an important/relative issue is that without the rapture, Christians will have to endure the tribulation and perhaps Armageddon. If I was a seeker, Christians would have a hard time explaining the need to change my life and accept Christ because there is no advantage over waiting till near death to do so. I can continue to sin without fear that Christ will come to take His children to heaven unexpectedly. After all, how can a God who loves us so much that he sent His Son to die for our sins be so cruel to make His children go through the same torment and torture that the unsaved will go through. So it is important to salvation whether we believe in the rapture and when/if it will occur.

If this were true, then why does Christianity flourish during times of persecution against Christianity?