Left Behind - will there be a "Rapture"?

[ParanoidAndroid]

You can't argue with the orginal Greek manuscripts, the word for caught up is Harpazo, caught up, snatched away. sorry but you have to take the Bible at what it says. Not what others say it says. I don't mean to sound brash brother but Your study sources contradict the scriptures therefore they are inaccurate.

Spiritman

Not to sound brash either, but then why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned it? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

For the record, I haven't actually given any interpretation on these passages, so I'm not taking what others say about "it" (the Rapture). I'm simply looking at the history of the concept and wondering why it was only in the 19th Century that it ever became Church doctrine. Before that time, if you'd mentioned being caught up in the clouds, it's very possible they would have looked at you like you were a little perculiar. At the very least, we have to find a reason why God would keep the Rapture a secret from the early Christians and reveal it only after the 19th Century.

[HAZARD]

Scriptures plainly show that Jesus will return and take His saints out of this world before the tribulation. He will later return with them and the armies of Heaven to put down all rebellion and all sin.

The rapture is a distinct event in itself and takes place at least seven years before the second coming of christ. The rapture takes place before the tribulation, and the second coming after the tribulation. The rapture is the time when Christ comes FOR the saints (1 Thess. 4:13-17), and the second coming is when He comes back to the Earth WITH them (Zech. 14:1-5; Jude 14; Rev. 19:11-21). At the rapture, Christ takes the saints to heaven (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16; Col. 3:4), and at the second coming He Leaves Heaven with them (Rev. 19 11-21). At the rapture Christ does not come to Earth (1 thess.4:16) but at the second coming He does (Zech.14:14; Matt. 24:29-31). Since Christ does not come to earth at the rapture, it cannot be called the second coming of Christ.

Praise God for ever more! Haz.

[spiritman]

You can't argue with the orginal Greek manuscripts, the word for caught up is Harpazo, caught up, snatched away. sorry but you have to take the Bible at what it says. Not what others say it says. I don't mean to sound brash brother but Your study sources contradict the scriptures therefore they are inaccurate.

Spiritman

Not to sound brash either, but then why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned it? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

For the record, I haven't actually given any interpretation on these passages, so I'm not taking what others say about "it" (the Rapture). I'm simply looking at the history of the concept and wondering why it was only in the 19th Century that it ever became Church doctrine. Before that time, if you'd mentioned being caught up in the clouds, it's very possible they would have looked at you like you were a little perculiar. At the very least, we have to find a reason why God would keep the Rapture a secret from the early Christians and reveal it only after the 19th Century.

Greetings precious brother in Christ; you asked: why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned the rapture? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

My response: There other writters who claim the rapture before this time period His name is Paul, and He wrote the book of 1st Thessalonians, it's time period is from 51 or 52 A.D. long before the above mentioned dates. As far as Christian writers go discussing or not discusing anything; the Bible is the first measuring stick that has to be used, not commentaries or other such writtings. If other extra Biblical material, such as commentaries or any other material contradict the scriptures then they are to be disguarded, (the Bible is always right). if you can come up with another definiton that fits the context in 1Thess 4:13-17 for Harpazo, then I'll listen, but in most cases when dealing with someone that is taken up to the third heaven or tranported in a supernatural manner, this word Harpazo, and the definition; (to catch up, snatch away, pluck up with sudden force is used).

2 Cor 12:2-4 (NASB)for example the following scriptures: 2corinthinans 12:2-4 reads: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago

[Massorite]

I did a search for this topic, and did find a few interesting threads about it, but from what I could find, none of them were polls which could gauge how many people believed in the Rapture or not. The basic question - Is the Bible clear on the definite Rapture occuring, or is the complete lack of early historical writings, particularly from some of the greatest minds in Christian history, evidence that there are other interpretations of these verses???

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

The Rapture is a very common belief among many Christians today. But has it always been so?

It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned a syllable about it - Further reading

There exists at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza [9] in 1812, and by John Nelson Darby himself in 1827.[10] However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations, as well.

The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is sometimes attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision that was later[11] published in 1861.

The popularization of the term is associated with teaching of John Nelson Darby, prominent among the Plymouth Brethren, and the rise of premillennialism and dispensationalism in English-speaking churches at the end of the 19th century - Further reading

The words Bible, and Trinity aren't in the scripture either, but I read one, and I believe in the Trinity, because the description is there. Same with the rapture, the word is not in the Bible but 2nd thess 4:13-17 describe the rapture. also here is a verse from the Old testament that descibes the rapture:

Isaiah 26:19-21 NASB

19 Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn , And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course.

21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NASB)

As you can plainly see here in verse 19 God is describing the raising of the Dead as in 2 thess 4:13-17. during the rapture the bride of Christ will meet Christ in the air, and stay with Him for a period of 7 years, which is what verse 20 in Isaiah 26:19-21 is refering to. verse 21 here is describing the Tribulation period.

You can't argue with the orginal Greek manuscripts, the word for caught up is Harpazo, caught up, snatched away. sorry but you have to take the Bible at what it says. Not what others say it says. I don't mean to sound brash brother but Your study sources contradict the scriptures therefore they are inaccurate.

Spiritman

That is a great point Spiritman. If more Christians took the word of God for what it says and not what they want it to say there would be alot less disagreement between us.

[EricH]

You can't argue with the orginal Greek manuscripts, the word for caught up is Harpazo, caught up, snatched away. sorry but you have to take the Bible at what it says. Not what others say it says. I don't mean to sound brash brother but Your study sources contradict the scriptures therefore they are inaccurate.

Spiritman

Not to sound brash either, but then why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned it? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

For the record, I haven't actually given any interpretation on these passages, so I'm not taking what others say about "it" (the Rapture). I'm simply looking at the history of the concept and wondering why it was only in the 19th Century that it ever became Church doctrine. Before that time, if you'd mentioned being caught up in the clouds, it's very possible they would have looked at you like you were a little perculiar. At the very least, we have to find a reason why God would keep the Rapture a secret from the early Christians and reveal it only after the 19th Century.

Greetings precious brother in Christ; you asked: why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned the rapture? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

My response: There other writters who claim the rapture before this time period His name is Paul, and He wrote the book of 1st Thessalonians, it's time period is from 51 or 52 A.D. long before the above mentioned dates. As far as Christian writers go discussing or not discusing anything; the Bible is the first measuring stick that has to be used, not commentaries or other such writtings. If other extra Biblical material, such as commentaries or any other material contradict the scriptures then they are to be disguarded, (the Bible is always right). if you can come up with another definiton that fits the context in 1Thess 4:13-17 for Harpazo, then I'll listen, but in most cases when dealing with someone that is taken up to the third heaven or tranported in a supernatural manner, this word Harpazo, and the definition; (to catch up, snatch away, pluck up with sudden force is used).

2 Cor 12:2-4 (NASB)for example the following scriptures: 2corinthinans 12:2-4 reads: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago

[Massorite]

You can't argue with the orginal Greek manuscripts, the word for caught up is Harpazo, caught up, snatched away. sorry but you have to take the Bible at what it says. Not what others say it says. I don't mean to sound brash brother but Your study sources contradict the scriptures therefore they are inaccurate.

Spiritman

Not to sound brash either, but then why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned it? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

For the record, I haven't actually given any interpretation on these passages, so I'm not taking what others say about "it" (the Rapture). I'm simply looking at the history of the concept and wondering why it was only in the 19th Century that it ever became Church doctrine. Before that time, if you'd mentioned being caught up in the clouds, it's very possible they would have looked at you like you were a little perculiar. At the very least, we have to find a reason why God would keep the Rapture a secret from the early Christians and reveal it only after the 19th Century.

Greetings precious brother in Christ; you asked: why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned the rapture? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

My response: There other writters who claim the rapture before this time period His name is Paul, and He wrote the book of 1st Thessalonians, it's time period is from 51 or 52 A.D. long before the above mentioned dates. As far as Christian writers go discussing or not discusing anything; the Bible is the first measuring stick that has to be used, not commentaries or other such writtings. If other extra Biblical material, such as commentaries or any other material contradict the scriptures then they are to be disguarded, (the Bible is always right). if you can come up with another definiton that fits the context in 1Thess 4:13-17 for Harpazo, then I'll listen, but in most cases when dealing with someone that is taken up to the third heaven or tranported in a supernatural manner, this word Harpazo, and the definition; (to catch up, snatch away, pluck up with sudden force is used).

2 Cor 12:2-4 (NASB)for example the following scriptures: 2corinthinans 12:2-4 reads: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago

[HAZARD]

"So were in 1 Thess 4:13-17 does it talk about "a secret rapture"?"

.

No where mate!

Theres nothing secret about it and if it was supposed to be a secret its not a very good or well hidden secret? I found it just by one reading. In fact, I could not find the word 'secret' in any verse or chapter in the entire books of 1 or 2 Thessalonians.

[Rick-Parker]

So it seems that the pre-trib paradigm is invalid. I propose that the next step is to have the courage to rethink our understanding of the end of time. We have all the raw data we need in the Bible. Anyone else game?

That my be your conclusion, but it is not mine. And, this is not a game.

[Xan]

2 Thessalonians 2:1ff "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way decieve you, for it will not come unless the apostacy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

To me it is so clear, I am unable to wrap my brain around why it is not. Could someone please explain to me how it is that Paul clearly said our gathering to Jesus will not come until the apostacy is revealed, yet you are unable to believe it?

[spiritman]

You can't argue with the orginal Greek manuscripts, the word for caught up is Harpazo, caught up, snatched away. sorry but you have to take the Bible at what it says. Not what others say it says. I don't mean to sound brash brother but Your study sources contradict the scriptures therefore they are inaccurate.

Spiritman

Not to sound brash either, but then why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned it? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

For the record, I haven't actually given any interpretation on these passages, so I'm not taking what others say about "it" (the Rapture). I'm simply looking at the history of the concept and wondering why it was only in the 19th Century that it ever became Church doctrine. Before that time, if you'd mentioned being caught up in the clouds, it's very possible they would have looked at you like you were a little perculiar. At the very least, we have to find a reason why God would keep the Rapture a secret from the early Christians and reveal it only after the 19th Century.

Greetings precious brother in Christ; you asked: why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned the rapture? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

My response: There other writters who claim the rapture before this time period His name is Paul, and He wrote the book of 1st Thessalonians, it's time period is from 51 or 52 A.D. long before the above mentioned dates. As far as Christian writers go discussing or not discusing anything; the Bible is the first measuring stick that has to be used, not commentaries or other such writtings. If other extra Biblical material, such as commentaries or any other material contradict the scriptures then they are to be disguarded, (the Bible is always right). if you can come up with another definiton that fits the context in 1Thess 4:13-17 for Harpazo, then I'll listen, but in most cases when dealing with someone that is taken up to the third heaven or tranported in a supernatural manner, this word Harpazo, and the definition; (to catch up, snatch away, pluck up with sudden force is used).

2 Cor 12:2-4 (NASB)for example the following scriptures: 2corinthinans 12:2-4 reads: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago