nebula Posted December 3, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 3, 2008 My take is that what was called Ephraim is now called Joseph. vs. 8 - from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. I could be wrong...but why did John list Joseph and Manasseh when Joseph's family was split between the two sons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 4, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 it says they are sealed by living God. He is not going to seal unbelievers. I used your post cause it was short. I think I look at Israel differently than most Christians. While I agree that JESUS was/is their savior as well, I believe GOD has made a covenant with them that allows for their salvation even though they are still looking forward to their Messiah's coming. They have believed GOD that HE would send the Messiah. The fact that they have believed GOD and are trusting in HIS promises make me think that they are still going to be with HIM. I know that there are those who believe that they have to except JESUS as savior first, and I am not going to argue the point. But, I think I see something in the scritures that tells me that they will be united with their GOD as a result of the promise GOD has made to them that they are HIS chosen. Still, I wrestle with that idea because i have been taught that Jews need to believe in JESUS to be saved. Thus, I question whether it is necessary for the 144,000 to be anything other than Jews whom GOD has kept pure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 4, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted December 4, 2008 it says they are sealed by living God. He is not going to seal unbelievers. I used your post cause it was short. I think I look at Israel differently than most Christians. While I agree that JESUS was/is their savior as well, I believe GOD has made a covenant with them that allows for their salvation even though they are still looking forward to their Messiah's coming. They have believed GOD that HE would send the Messiah. The fact that they have believed GOD and are trusting in HIS promises make me think that they are still going to be with HIM. I know that there are those who believe that they have to except JESUS as savior first, and I am not going to argue the point. But, I think I see something in the scritures that tells me that they will be united with their GOD as a result of the promise GOD has made to them that they are HIS chosen. Still, I wrestle with that idea because i have been taught that Jews need to believe in JESUS to be saved. Thus, I question whether it is necessary for the 144,000 to be anything other than Jews whom GOD has kept pure. Will here is something to consider. The antichrist will come befor Jesus and he will be claiming to be the son of God/God first before Chist comes. The Jews will be decieved by him and they will build a new temple for him to sit in. The only reason the gospel was given to the gentile when it was given was because the Jews rejected Jesus. Many times in the new testamentr it says "to the Jew first and then to the gentile". The bible also says that all of Isreal will bend the knee to Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. So scripture says that they will be excepting Jesus as their Lord and Saviour just like we have and if there are still some who continue to refuse Jesus they will recieve the same kind of judgement we would for refusing to except Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 4, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted December 4, 2008 As far as blink's question of why the 12 tribes are different in Revelation than in the O.T. I would like to know if anyone could answer that as well. I DID answer the question. READ POST 12. It was helpful, but it did not explain the absence of the tribe of Dan in the list in Rev 7 ... The tribe of Dan was removed as a tribe of Isreal because they became very corrupted and because of a very grave sin members of the tribe of Dan commited. I think it was when the men of a town raped a mans dfaughter to death and then the father cut up the girls body up and sent the pieces to the rest of the tribes to make a point of how bad they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 4, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 4, 2008 The Scriptures actually do not say why Dan was missing. As for sin, all the tribes were guilty. And it was Benjamin that was guilty of the above sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xan Posted December 4, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/02/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/23/1970 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Dan was the only tribe to reject its birthright. That in itself is very significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 4, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted December 4, 2008 The Scriptures actually do not say why Dan was missing. As for sin, all the tribes were guilty. And it was Benjamin that was guilty of the above sin. OOOPs. Thank you for the correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 4, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Dan was the only tribe to reject its birthright. That in itself is very significant. Got this from an online encyclopedia. As part of the Kingdom of Israel, the territory of Dan was conquered by the Assyrians, and exiled; the manner of their exile led to their further history being lost. In modern day Ethiopia, a country which was isolated from much of the world from the Muslim conquest of north Africa until the 19th century, are the Beta Israel, a group of Jews claiming to be descendants of the Tribe of Judah, through King Solomon and Makeda, Queen of Sheba and their son Menelik I, the first Solomonic Emperor of Ethiopia. According to the Book of Revelation (7:4-8), the tribe of Dan is the only original tribe of Israel which is not included in the list of tribes which are sealed. No mention is made of why they are excluded. It could be a textual error (Menasheh substituted for Dan) or it could be because of their pagan practices. This made Hippolytus of Rome and Millennialists claim that the Antichrist will come from the tribe of Dan. Dan is not the only tribe not mentioned in Revelation 7:5-8: neither is the tribe of Ephraim. The tribes of Joseph and of Levi are mentioned in Revelation 7:5-8, while they were not commonly counted as tribes elsewhere. In most listings of the twelve tribes Levi is omitted, since the inheritance of Levi are the sacrifices of Israel and not an allotment of territory. Ordinarily Ephraim and Menasseh take the place of Joseph to keep the number of tribes at twelve once Levi is excluded. If Dan were excluded from Revelation 7:5-8, due to its being a seat of idolatry in the Northern Kingdom, perhaps the same reasoning might account for the exclusion of Ephraim since the other seat of idolatry in the Northern Kingdom was Bethel, situated in the territory of Ephraim. However, in Numbers 1:32, the tribe of Ephraim is clearly referenced as representing the "children of Joseph," thus, Ephraim appears to be a euphemism for Joseph, explaining Ephraim's apparent omission in Revelation chapter 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted December 4, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2008 I came across this today, Hosea 4:17-19 Ephraim is joined to idols, Let him alone. Their drink is rebellion and They commit harlotry continually. Her rulers dearly love dishonor. The wind has wrapped her up in its wings, And they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices. So could this be the reason they are not mentioned and have no place? edited for spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 5, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 5, 2008 In the prophets, "Ephraim" tended to be the term given to the Northern Kingdom of Israel. The Southern Kingdom of Israel consisting of Judah and Benjamin was termed "Judah," and the Northern Kingdom of Israel consisting of the rest of the tribes was termed "Ephraim." But as was mentioned previously, "Joseph" was never a tribe, for his inheritance was split between his two sons, Ephraim and Mannasseh. In Revelation, Manasseh is mentioned and Joseph is mentioned. Thus it seems to reason that "the tribe of Joseph" is the tribe of Ephraim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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