Legalism and the Church

[Yonatan]

Is it possible to overcome Legalism in the Church and other institutions of higher learning that teach man the nature of Christ.

God is a simplistic God in which his Love cannot be explained with our common Languages. Yet we somehow seem to complicate the simple in everything we do and teach. When will we understand that God's grace covers all things even the things Like Legalism, false teachings when the Word is as plain as day. The finger must be pointed at us yes all of us and can we change?

Denominations some 39,000 thrive on this Technique for control which literally quiches the spirit or move of God!

How far must we go before we wake up and Let God almighty unite us as one body!

It is most depressing when we do not even see the great falling away in which believers are turning away from the Church to get freed from there infirmities and problems, stupid usless programs social clubs and the grip of greed that produces no works. Could we be enterning into a magnificent move of God to restore his Church in the final chapter of the bible! Instead of people coming to us for advice they run away because of all the Sin and past experiences many have had in the Church. Self indulgence and Complicated procedures we try to force people into thinking we must be fully learned and taught before we are excepted by God! We can do nothing unless we measure us to his standards set forth by the Church when Jesus did all that for us. The minute we say Yes Lord we are ready for action on the batlefied for souls and miricles!

I also see much Legalism here on this board and widespread all over the net!

Help God please help us to realize the Job you have for us to do on this earth and how we must come together as one to accomplish this task and sad to say I see it occuring outside the sleeping church!

[Yonatan]

'Legalism' is an attitude that extends way beyond the confines of the Church. It can be bred into one by culture, education and upbringing. I submit here a 'script' called A Christmas Feast which I believe illustrates, hopefully in an enlightening way, some of the pitfalls of 'by the book' attitudes coming not only from differnt Christian denominations, but also from other faiths.

The point I am tring to make is that 'legalism' per se, is not only a Christian problem, it is problem that human nature demonstrates it is capable of in all sorts of circumstances. That may be where Christians, including myself, ought to start, when looking for solutions to this 'behavioral/cultural/social' disorder.

A Christmas Feast

Foreword

This story is about a journalist who decides to throw a Christmas party at the office. Everyone working for the magazine is invited, whatever faith or persuasion.

He tells the invited employees they will be having a traditional Christmas dinner given by management. They will have an opportunity to talk about what they think of it all, and the discussion will be recorded. Everyone agrees.

This is a transcription of the recording in print.

------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan

Mr. Tenzing Norgay, you are a Buddhist - a Tibetan exile. How do you feel about the Christmas season?

Tenzing

Is very good. Yes. There are many colors and presents. It is a festival - it is your tradition. Festivals are good things. In Tibet, we have many, many festivals. Even now, in exile, we try keep our culture alive through festivals.

Jonathan

Do you know what Christians celebrate at Christmas?

Tenzing

You see. I have studied. I know Christian man believe in Jesus coming from God. But I observe much commerce this day. I think maybe day is special only for food and gifts. This is good! Food and gifts. But I think sometimes Christian man forget why is Christmas. He not know Jesus birthday..(laughs)

Jonathan

Thank you Mr. Norgay. - Mr. Hamilton, you look as if you are going to burst! What do you think about Christmas?

Mr. Hamilton

Like every other religious celebration in the whole world, it is based on fanciful stories. As an atheist, I believe God does not exist. Christmas time celebrates a story made by mans imagination, about the son of God being born in our world. I do not believe it. Mr. Norgay is right. It is a time for commerce to exploit these beliefs and make a lot of money. They do the same thing for other days invented for that purpose, like Mothers Day and Valentines Day.

Jonathan

Miss Crispin, you are a Christian. What do you think? Is Christmas mainly just an opportunity to make money?

Martha Crispin

Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak. First, I want to point out that Mr. Norgay was very respectful about our traditions, and I agree with him that many people have turned way from the deeper meaning of Christmas. But not everybody has. For many true Christians, December 25 is counted as the birthday of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.

For the children, everyone understands birthdays, and they see the giving and feel the loving atmosphere of Christmas. The special food, decorations and presents give them a sense of occasion. They learn from this and later, when they are older, they understand the deeper meaning of Christmas.

Jonathan

Which is?

Martha Crispin

That Jesus Christ was born, like one of us, to share our earthly existence.

Jonathan

Thank you Martha. May I ask you how you feel about Mr. Hamiltons opinions about God?

Martha

Well, first, I want to say to Mr. Hamilton, that God loves him, Jesus is looking for him, and if he accepts Jesus as his Lord, he will be saved.

Mr. Hamilton (interrupting)

Miss. Crispin, how can you say that God loves me when I dont believe in him?

Jonathan

Just a moment please, I want to remind everybody that we agreed not to enter into arguments about our beliefs, but explain them and respect each other.

Martha, doesnt Mr. Hamilton have a right to his atheist beliefs? Shouldnt you respect that rather than make a judgment about his status with God so to speak?

Martha

I am not judging Mr. Hamilton. There is a judge for him and it is not me. I am just witnessing to the Truth.

Tenzing (laughing, interrupts)

Miss Martha, you see this you are doing all the time; you are saying your God is Truth, He only right god. Mr. Hamilton believe in different God. You not right, Hamilton not right. Both you think up god - Real God, something else.ha ha ha (Tenzing laughs again.)

Mr. Hamilton

This is nonsense! Miss Crispin believes in God. I believe in no God. I am an atheist.

Tenzing

You see! You see! You talk positive! You say I believe in no God. So yes, you have belief! Belief in No thing! For Miss Martha God is Jesus, for Hamilton God is No thing. You both believers! You believe in Jesus; you believe in Nothing. Ha ha ha ha ha !

This okay, but wrong. God not Jesus completely, God not

Nothing completely. God is mystery. God live in special mystery place. Invisible place!

Jonathan

Ahem! Well, let us all calm down now. Lets have some Christmas pudding.

Mr. Hamilton

Has the Christmas pudding been made with brandy?

Jonathan

Oh, yes! I believe it does have some brandy in it. It is genuine. Straight from Henry V Bakeries in London, England.

Mr. Hamilton

Well I cannot eat any then. I dont drink. I used to be in the AA. Do you realize how many alcoholics there are in America?

Martha

Me either. I cannot eat that pudding if it has brandy in it. It is against my religion to drink wine, spirits, liqueurs or any sort of alcohol.

Abdul

Me cannot drink this either. Why man put wine in cake? This is crazy. Cake no good with wine. In Arabia, we eat pine nuts, baklava, sesame rolls - no wine! My religion says, no wine - no, not ever!

Jonathan

Well, what about some turkey then?

Abdul

I no like turkey; we not allowed to eat pork neither.

Daniel

My religion also says I must not eat pork, but turkey is not pork. Turkey is like a big chicken.

Jonathan

Well everybody, eat whatever you like, but lets not argue. I want everyone to relax and to continue our talk about Christmas.

Martha

I cannot eat turkey; it is meat. I am a vegetarian. In the Bible God first made all the plants for man to eat; it says so in Genesis. He never made the animals to eat. Jesus never ate meat.

Sunayna

I agree with this teaching of Jesus. I am Hindu. We must respect all life. We eat no meat at all. I am a vegetarian, too.

Mr. Hamilton

For your information Miss Crispin, Jesus ate fish and he drank wine too! So why shouldnt you eat meat and drink wine?

Martha

Mr. Hamilton, first of all fish is not meat. Fish are cold blooded. Jesus did not say do not eat fish. In fact, that is mostly what he ate. And as far as wine goes, wine in case you did not know it, is grape juice. Jesus drank grape juice, that is what he meant by wine.

Sunayna

Can this be true? Your Jesus this good man - let people eat living creatures, fish? I do not believe. This is not Hindu teaching.

Jonathan

Please everyone. Just choose whatever you like on the table. There must be something that you can eat. I thought eating together would make the atmosphere more cheerful and easy-going. I thought this would help understanding between us. Although our religions are different, as human beings, we all must eat; that surely is a point we can all agree on?

Mr. Hamilton

Quite right! By logic and facts, all humans must eat. It is something we have in common. So let us all pick something we like and eat it together. Logically, if we all ate at the same time, we would be speechless while we chomped. Thus, logically, we would be united in something!

Abdul

This is a good idea. But I will not eat right away as it is time for midday prayer. But you eat; all of you. I will forgive you. I understand that you have not known the Prophet; but after lunch I will explain our religion to you. Now please excuse me while I pray.

Jonathan

Let us respect Abduls wish to pray. Now the rest of us, let us choose something to eat, and eating it together, recognize that our humanity is greater than dietary rules.

Miss Crispin

Shall I lead the worship in giving thanks?

Daniel

Excuse me, wait a moment. I understand your wish to eat together Mr. Jonathan, but I am afraid that as an Orthodox Jew I cannot eat from this table either. That white sauce over there looks like it was made with cream or milk?

Jonathan

It was.

Daniel

Well my religion forbids me to mix milk and meat at the same meal. However, if you take the turkey and any other meat products back to the kitchen, I will eat with you.

Martha

Mr. Steinway, I respect your religion, but surely you must realize that you personally do not have to mix the turkey and the white sauce. I happen to love white sauce.

Secondly, there is a more important point here. We are trying to have a civilized discussion about Christmas. To take a bite together is symbolic. It is meant to show that as children of God we are all equal, even though some of us have not yet had the full revelation of the Lord, as I have.

Sunayna

You mean the Lord Krishna?

Martha

No, I should have said the full revelation of God, not the Lord.

Sunayna

But Miss Martha, I know all about God. I have been taught about Krishna and Shiva and Shakti since I was a child.

Ian Kirby

May I say a word? I have been silent, but now I feel I should speak. I am a professor of English Literature at a University in Germany.

It is obvious to me that everyone here is missing the point entirely. All of you, except me, have absolutely fixed and rigid belief systems. You are all in prisons of your own making and become incoherent (that means muddled up) when outside of the frameworks of your own beliefs.

Mr.Jonathan has tried to find common ground in his humanistic approach. As we must all eat and drink let us celebrate our common humanity (that means that we are all human beings) and by this will transcend (that means get above) our differences.

But none of you here, except me, have gone this way. Daniel will not eat because his religion says he cannot eat pork, or milk and meat mixed. Abdul will not eat because it is time for prayer and there is brandy in the pudding. Mr. Hamilton will not eat because there is brandy in the pudding. He believes in Nothing, except Alcoholics Anonymous and himself.

Sunayna wont eat meat, fish, eggs or any sort of animal product; and Martha wont drink alcohol or eat turkey because she believes Jesus was against meat eating because he never mentioned meat eating and only ate fish and vegetables in the Bible. So, why dont all of you just drop the subject of eating.

Do what you like, eat or not; but lets talk about Christmas.

Mr. Hamilton

Are we to take it that you are a Christian, Mr. Kirby?

Ian Kirby

Well, I thought I was; but then my parents changed churches when I was twelve, and started going to a Baptist Church where they believed that you were not a Christian unless you were totally immersed in water. Now, I pointed out to them that the thief who died with Jesus was not baptized, and Jesus said to him that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day.

But this Church told me they didnt count that, and the only way you could be sure of being a true Christian was to be totally immersed in water, but I never did do that - so now I am not sure whether I am a Christian or not, according to them. What do you think?

Mr. Hamilton

Well if you believe in God, you are.

Abdul

A Muslim

Daniel

A Jew

Sunayna

A Hindu

Mr. Hamilton

No, I was going to say, you are not an atheist.

Ian Kirby

Thats right.

I am a not an atheist, or a Christian, according to the Baptist Church; and I have also found that all the other churches are muddled up. In fact, I found that there are some 20,000 Christians sects in the world - all who think they are right.

Then there are the Roman Catholics who think all the other churches are wrong and only they are right. They think the Pope is infallible (that means cannot make a mistake) but the Protestant Christians think that each one of them is infallible and the only one in the world who is fallible (that means sometimes may make a mistake) is the Pope.

Martha

Ian, do you believe that Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior?

Ian

I dont know.

Mr. Hamilton

That means you are an agnostic.

Ian Kirby

Really? Where do they go to church?

Jonathan

Can we PLEASE start eating now! We have taken the turkey, roast pork and cold cuts out of the room. Anyone who wants some of them can go and help themselves in the kitchen. We also took the white sauce out, the stuffed hard-boiled eggs, the cheese platter, and the champagne we were going to open.

Daniel

This is a very good thing you have done.

I feel inspired to tell you that I believe G-d would like to reward you for your respect for Orthodox Judaism and, for that matter, for respecting the little girls faith, and Abduls Islamic principles even though their beliefs are totally incorrect.

Now, while you pray Miss Crispin, I shall remove my presence from this room, as we do not believe in the Messiah, in the same way you do. (Exit Daniel)

Jonathan (after the prayer)

I have poured you all a glass of water. Let propose a toast:

To human kind!

All

To human kind! (They all drink their glasses of water.)

Afterword

After that, they assembled company fell about consuming what was left of the Christmas feast. Bread, fruit, vegetables and water were eaten and drunken silently and rapidly.

At the end of the meal, everyone slipped out one by one to attend different functions at their synagogues, churches, temples and mosques. Ian Kirby the agnostic and Mr. Hamilton left in a taxi together and went to Smoothie King.

Later, when Ian Kirby was alone, he went to a bar and ordered a double Scotch. He wondered idly to himself whether in the United Agnostic Church, whenever he found one, they allowed alcoholic drinks.

If they do not, he thought, as the Scotch burned his stomach and rose to his head, giving him a moment of euphoria, I am not joining it.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Yonatan

[OneLight]

May I suggest that you slow down and read what you are saying to us so that there be no misunderstanding and that what you say is really what you mean. Read it from our standpoint, not yours. One thing I learned is that when I write something in a hurry, it does not come out the way I meant it, causing issues that should of not been there. Step back and try to look at your words through our eyes, the reader. You know what you are trying to say, but we don't. We see what is posted and that is all we have to go on.

Read it from our standpoint, not yours.

BTW ... who is "our"?

[OneLight]

'Legalism' is an attitude that extends way beyond the confines of the Church. It can be bred into one by culture, education and upbringing. I submit here a 'script' called A Christmas Feast which I believe illustrates, hopefully in an enlightening way, some of the pitfalls of 'by the book' attitudes coming not only from differnt Christian denominations, but also from other faiths.

The point I am tring to make is that 'legalism' per se, is not only a Christian problem, it is problem that human nature demonstrates it is capable of in all sorts of circumstances. That may be where Christians, including myself, ought to start, when looking for solutions to this 'behavioral/cultural/social' disorder.

I won't argue your point, but this thread is discussing legalism within the confines of Christianity, where the term legalism means salvation through works, as one doing enough for God in order to earn salvation instead of accepting it through the salvation Jesus offers. Legalism does not cause Lukewarmness, for those who do not accept the free gift from God, but try to earn their way into heaven, are not even lukewarm, but ice cold.

I say again, Ephesians 2:8-9 (New King James Version)

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The works here is legalism.

[Yonatan]

'Legalism' is an attitude that extends way beyond the confines of the Church. It can be bred into one by culture, education and upbringing. I submit here a 'script' called A Christmas Feast which I believe illustrates, hopefully in an enlightening way, some of the pitfalls of 'by the book' attitudes coming not only from differnt Christian denominations, but also from other faiths.

The point I am tring to make is that 'legalism' per se, is not only a Christian problem, it is problem that human nature demonstrates it is capable of in all sorts of circumstances. That may be where Christians, including myself, ought to start, when looking for solutions to this 'behavioral/cultural/social' disorder.

I won't argue your point, but this thread is discussing legalism within the confines of Christianity, where the term legalism means salvation through works, as one doing enough for God in order to earn salvation instead of accepting it through the salvation Jesus offers. Legalism does not cause Lukewarmness, for those who do not accept the free gift from God, but try to earn their way into heaven, are not even lukewarm, but ice cold.

I say again, Ephesians 2:8-9 (New King James Version)

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The works here is legalism.

[Yonatan]

'Legalism' is an attitude that extends way beyond the confines of the Church. It can be bred into one by culture, education and upbringing. I submit here a 'script' called A Christmas Feast which I believe illustrates, hopefully in an enlightening way, some of the pitfalls of 'by the book' attitudes coming not only from differnt Christian denominations, but also from other faiths.

The point I am tring to make is that 'legalism' per se, is not only a Christian problem, it is problem that human nature demonstrates it is capable of in all sorts of circumstances. That may be where Christians, including myself, ought to start, when looking for solutions to this 'behavioral/cultural/social' disorder.

I won't argue your point, but this thread is discussing legalism within the confines of Christianity, where the term legalism means salvation through works, as one doing enough for God in order to earn salvation instead of accepting it through the salvation Jesus offers. Legalism does not cause Lukewarmness, for those who do not accept the free gift from God, but try to earn their way into heaven, are not even lukewarm, but ice cold.

I say again, Ephesians 2:8-9 (New King James Version)

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The works here is legalism.

[Yonatan]

"......this thread is discussing legalism within the confines of Christianity...."

Well, are you saying that my contribution should 'strictly speaking' not be posted here?

If so, please feel free to delete it.

Yonatan

[OneLight]

"......this thread is discussing legalism within the confines of Christianity...."

Well, are you saying that my contribution should 'strictly speaking' not be posted here?

If so, please feel free to delete it.

Yonatan

No, that is not the case, but it did concern me that the thread may be hi-jacked into a discussion of the many types of legalism. Accept my apology for making such a harsh statement without explanation.

[Annette443pink]

I agree so much with the original post. We are so, so busy banging each other and others over the head with the Bible and stabbing each other in the back with the "Sword". It is so pititful, so wrong. We have no idea what love is, what grace is, what mercy is. It makes me sad, mad, discouraged. I mean, there are so many things that are so much more important that we could be focusing on, but instead the church is often just looking for the correct behavior from it's members. Behavior that is much what the Pharisees and Sadduccees would have expected. Not bothering to care about the circumstances and needs of their own members, let alone the needs of the lost. The love of the church tends to be extremely conditional. It's sickening. I have been so discouraged that I've said that it's a good thing that I have a husband and children or I think I'd just walk completely away from tge organized church. I've got a whole lot of stress in my life and the church shouldn't be an added stress. The church seems to think that the Holy Spirit is incapable of convicting a person of their sin. Most of the time I imagine He is already at work and people sticking their legalistic noses into it tends to hinder His work.

[Axxman]

I mean, there are so many things that are so much more important that we could be focusing on, but instead the church is often just looking for the correct behavior from it's members.

Oh my...what is this tragedy in which Churches expect Godly behavior from its members? I didn't realize legalism had reached such monstrous expectations...

Isn't it just as legalistic to try and force someone into the view of being accepting of other people's shortcomings? Isn't it just as legalistic to try and force people into a ministry better than what Jesus and the disciples had. Isn't it just as legalistic to judge someone for not believing in your belief that we are somehow moving into the "final chapter" and should be healing, prophecying, etc?

You can't accuse the church of being overly legalistic...and then start complaining that the church is in peril because they don't follow your rules..lol.