Give Gaza, West Bank to Egypt, Jordan

[Guest]

Heathens Still Occupy God's Lands

Deliver me from the workers of iniquity, and save me from bloody men. Psalms 59:2

And Even As We Witness The Gathering Of God's Chosen

Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob. Ezekiel 28:25

Those Who Despise God Continue To Rage Against His Chosen But Not For Long

And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God. Ezekiel 28:26

Maranatha!

Come Quickly LORD Jesus, Come Quickly

[backontrack]

In answer to your first question, the Palestinians effectively posses the land in question.

God owns the land and God by right as Creator/Sovereign gave that land to Israel by virtue of an eternal covenant. The land is not Israel's to give away and it is not the Palestinians's to possess. The Gaza was given to Judah and the West Bank is biblical Judea and Samaria. It is God's land and by extension it is Israel's land. The fact that Israel has mistakenly allowed the Palestinians to possess it doesn't really matter from the standpoint of whose land it is.

As we all have come to understand, possession is nine tenths of the law.

That is American law. We are not dealing with how things are done in the US. God's word holds more authority in this issue.

Unless Israel is prepared to risk war with the Arab world, and it's "friends" then it must concede that there is little benefit from legally "owning" that land.

Ultimately, the Lord fights for Israel. The Arab world has, historically never been a match for the chosen people of God. The Jews have whipped them before, and they will continue doing so. There is a lot of benefit from owning the Land God has given them.

As for your second "major problem" the terrorists already inhabit and utilize these "platforms" and so they are already enabled, as you put it.

When Egypt held Gaza and Jordan held the West Bank, not only were the Palestinians brutalized by them for 19 years, but they used those areas to stage the 6 - Day War. Israel's presence in those areas was meant to be a buffer to prevent those countries from using those areas to stage further wars. So it makes no sense stragegically to give them up.

Thirdly, it doesn't matter what Egypt or Jordan's history with terrorists is like.

Oooooh yes, it does. It matters alot given that the most Palestinians hail from either Jordan, Egypt or Lebanon. It also matters because they will simply use those areas as terrorist breeding grounds. The West Bank and Gaza will become nothing but glorified terrorist training camps, and Israel does not need that kind of threat sitting on its doorstep.

When the world can no longer hold Israel responsible for the state of affairs in these lands then they must concede that the violence against Israel is not born out of discontent but of hatred.

YOu don't understand the type irrational hatred Israel faces with respect to the international community. It can and has been long proven that it is hate that motivates the terrorists and not poverty or discontent. The problem is that the world hates Israel because they hate Israel. When it comes to Israel, I have found that people don't need a good reason to hate them. Israel as become "The Jew" of the international community. The age-old anti-Semitism of pre holocaust Europe has morphed into ant-Zionism and a belief that Israel is a mistake and doesn't have a good reason to justify its existance.

Finally couldn't the same be said for all the lands of the earth? Do the Jews then not own the land that God promised or is it only a loan? If they do own it then can they not do with it what they wish, including giving it to others?

This Land in particular God calls His Land. It is the only place where God says He has placed His Name. He says In Leviticus 25 that the land is His. God has a lot to say about the Land of Israel. It holds a special place in His heart. God is the ultimate owner of the Land and He gave it to Israel as part of an eternal covenant in Genesis 15, and 17.

The only "benefit" Israel gets from owning those territories is for the air space.

That is not true

Here is a breakdown of what Israel had while Jews were still living in Gaza:

1. $120 Million a year revenue from flower exports

2. 60% of Israel's tomato exports came from the Gaza strip

3. 15-20% of all of Israel's agricultural exports came from Gaza

4. Gaza provided employment for 10,000 Jews and 5,000 Palestinians in the agricultural sector

5. 166 farms were lost

6. 800 cows moved from the second largest dairy farm in the area over to the West Bank, and so far the lost revenue has not been recovered.

7. Israel lost 1,000 acres of greenhouses

8. 70% of Israel organic produce was grown in Gaza and that revenue was lost with the disengagement.

Aside from the financial benefits, the others are as important. When Israel was in Gaza, it provided a buffer and there were fewer rocket attacks on Jews. It also kept more cities out of range of qassam rockets. The current arrangement in Gaza has placed Israeli towns that prior to 2005 were out of qassam range, well within range of those rockets.

What Israel NEEDS to do is take Gaza back and restore its Jewish population. That would be the best and the most biblical thing they could do, in addition to making Hamas a subject only read about in History books from now on.

If Israel gives the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians, it will only whet their appetite for Israel itself. They will not stop until Israel is destroyed. That is their stated goal. The Palestinians and the Arab world as a whole has been very straightforward and unambiguous about that.

The Sin Of Abraham and Sara gave Ishmael false hope because he two was a descendent! God told Abraham to sacrifice him not Isaac like they think as it is written in there Koran!

Of course we know it was Isaac who God Gave the Land to as Abraham and Sara

[Burning_Ember]

While Jews and Isreal do face anti-semitism, but I would challenge anyone here to analyze their own statements about Arabs and think about whether what you've said has marginalized Arabs. This is by no means a black and white issue.

[Guest shiloh357]

While Jews and Isreal do face anti-semitism, but I would challenge anyone here to analyze their own statements about Arabs and think about whether what you've said has marginalized Arabs. This is by no means a black and white issue.

Nothing we have said marginalizes Arabs. Truth is truth. The Arab world is not at all secretive about its hatred of Israel. That is not "marginalizing" them. I am not saying anything they have not said themselves.

It is a very black and white issue. The difference here is that we are not claiming that Arabs are descended from pigs and apes, no one is calling for the destruction of the Arab people or any such thing. Yet the entire Arab world is united in one thing: The destruction of Israel.

[nebula]

Actually the best thing is to expel the terrorist Arabs from both Gaza and Judea and Samaria once and for all, and at the same time level the Mosque monstrosities on the Temple Mount, and kick out the Waqf..and do all of this before world opinion can blink.

[O'Dannyboy]

I don't want Israel to give any land away nor do I want enemies of Israel living on Jewish Land. I also don't want to see Israel behaving or being treated like a cornered animal. To live in a constant state of fear is not really living. As someone mentioned look at how they have tolerated that eyesore of a mosque on the mount because they fear open war. Israel has been walking on eggshells since first declaring statehood just as Jews/Hebrew have been doing for eons.

I'm simply tired of Israel being bullied. As the state of things around the world deteriorate I want more and more for Christs return. I'm tired of all the sin and hate. I'm ready for real change. The kind of change that Christs' return will herald.

[Guest shiloh357]

I also don't want to see Israel behaving or being treated like a cornered animal.

Israel isn't acting like a cornered animal. Israel has shown extreme restraint not only in the fact that they have waited this long (over three years) to respond to rocket attacks Hamas by entering Gaza, but also keep in mind that IF Israel were not trying to keep the civilian casualties as low as possible, we would be looking that thousands of civilian deaths given what Israel is capable of. Israel COULD turn Gaza into a sand box without a soul left alive. Israel has also chose to do what is known as "clearing by infantry" which means going house to house which saves the lives of innocents and puts Israeli soldiers at greater risk.

From a military standpoint, Israel is doing all it reasonably do to defend itself without being a monster in the process. For anyone to expect Israel to fight a sanitary war, with no civilians getting killed is both unreasonable and would not be expected of any other nation were they facing a similar threat.

To live in a constant state of fear is not really living. As someone mentioned look at how they have tolerated that eyesore of a mosque on the mount because they fear open war.

No that is not reason. Israel was founded on principles that in many ways mirror that of the founding principles of the US. They allow the Dome, not because they are afraid of war, but because it represents Israel's willing to allow freedom of religion. Israel does not allow the mosque to remain out of fear of war any more than they allow Christian holy sites to remain because they are of afraid of a war with Christians.

The founders of Israel were not religious. The majority of Israel's government is not religious. The Temple Mount at this time is not that important to them. The original founders of Israel were atheists and agnostics and so the Temple Mount was not a prize to them. They gave it to the Arabs as a gesture of goodwill and as proof they were willing to live together in peace. Israel, more than anything wants peace, but make no mistake, they are not afraid of war.

Israel has been walking on eggshells since first declaring statehood just as Jews/Hebrew have been doing for eons.

I would not say that. Israel has tried (in futility) to please the world community, but no one will be pleased until Israel ceases to exist. I would not say Israel has been walking on eggshells.

[Burning_Ember]

Because saying all Arabs want the destruction of Isreal is not marginalizing or stereotyping.

But really, Hamas is not exactly the most popular in the Arab world. The Arab world is not homogenuos in that respect. Its not as though Isreal is perfect, and every action they take is justified. In the first ten days of the recent conflict for example, about 4 people in Isreal died from rocket attacks. Innocent civilians. In Gaza, the number was around 200. I think Isreal has every right to exist, but that doesn't mean that their response to Hamas is proportional, or the results thereof just and right.

[Matthitjah]

Because saying all Arabs want the destruction of Isreal is not marginalizing or stereotyping.

But really, Hamas is not exactly the most popular in the Arab world. The Arab world is not homogenuos in that respect. Its not as though Isreal is perfect, and every action they take is justified. In the first ten days of the recent conflict for example, about 4 people in Isreal died from rocket attacks. Innocent civilians. In Gaza, the number was around 200. I think Isreal has every right to exist, but that doesn't mean that their response to Hamas is proportional, or the results thereof just and right.

Grace to you,

A proportionate response would then be for Israel to indiscriminately lob in excess of 1,000 unguided missles and mortars into Gaza?

Great then, I'll tell Israel they have your full support for a new strategy in this War. The strategy of proportion.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest shiloh357]

Because saying all Arabs want the destruction of Isreal is not marginalizing or stereotyping.

I am not stereotyping. I am just repeating what the overwhelming majority of Arabs declare without any contradiction from other Arabs in the Muslim world. The entire Arab has over the last six years contributed in terms of money, arms, personnel, and moral support, etc. to the destruction of Israel. I cannot say EVERY individual Arab in the world wants Israel to be destroyed, but I can in a general sense say with complete accuracy that the overwhelming majority of the Arab world (better than 95%) wants Israel to be destroyed. There is not ONE Arab/Muslim government on earth that actively or passively supports Israel's right to exist.

So far, you have not seen ONE Muslim demonstration in support of Israel's existance anywhere the Arab/Muslim world, or anywhere in the western world either. 100% of all Muslim demonstrations every conducted are for the entire destruction of Israel.

But really, Hamas is not exactly the most popular in the Arab world. The Arab world is not homogenuos in that respect.

Doesn't matter. The Arab world supports Hamas and uses terrorists has a 5th column in a war of attrition against Israel. The Arab world didn't care about Arafat or the PLO, but they were useful to the overall goal of destroying Israel, as well as leaving the Palestinians as refugees in order to use them a means of smearing Israel in the arena of public opinion.

Its not as though Isreal is perfect, and every action they take is justified. In the first ten days of the recent conflict for example, about 4 people in Isreal died from rocket attacks.

So what?? That is irrelevant. In no other war, has there ever been an expection that casualties losses had to be on a one-to-one basis. The US did not lose as many soliders in WWII as the Japanese lost in civilians when the US dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Yet the world community did not find fault with that action.

This the only conflict where people demand that Israel is somehow in the wrong because more people have died in its reprisals than the recent rocket attacks launched by Hamas. Here is the other problem: Hamas has killed over 500 Israelis since the 2nd Intifada and maimed or injured 2,000 more. The problem is here is a lack of context. These rocket attacks do not stand on their own. They are a part of a culmination of 60 years of terrorist attacks and wars Israel has been forced defend itself against. When you place this current chapter of the conflict in its proper context, it is part of a protracted Muslim/Arab/Paletinian campaign against Israel's existance.

Innocent civilians.

In this conflict "Civilian" does not mean "innocent" nor does it mean "noncombatant." These "innocent" civilians voted for the most ruthless and bloodthirsty terroist regime to be their representative government. Hamas ran on an platform straight out of the pages of Mein Kampf. The Palestinian people overwhelmingly in a very surprising landslide vote declared with one voice "Hamas represents our ideals and values. Hamas respresents us." Thus, the Palestinian people in a free and democratic election, voted for and indeed called for the destruction of Israel. As a community, they are not innocent.

As for the chldren who died, it is an tragic and misfortune of war. But for 60 years the terorrists including PLO, Hezbollah, Al Aqsa, and Hams have been purposefully targetting Israeli children in store, on playgrounds in buses on deserted roads and other areas where they are soft targets. They strike the most innocent and vulnerable members of Israeli society for no other reason than it is right in their eyes, to kill a Jew.

Funny how we never hear a peep from people like you when it is just Jews who are doing the dying. Liberals only find their voice when Israel's patience is worn out and they have to defend themselves. Suddenly you care the "innocent" people. So when Jewish babies die in terrorist attacks, and you are silent, does that silence mean that they are not innocent or that they are not people?

I think Isreal has every right to exist, but that doesn't mean that their response to Hamas is proportional, or the results thereof just and right.

You are bit mixed up as to what "proportionate" response means in a military sense. Proportionate response means the level of force necessary to make your enemy despair of further conflict. It means the the response necessary to win the war. "Proportionate response" is not a one-to-one ratio, nor is it "tit for tat." The response is proportionate to degree of the threat, and since you don't live in Israel, I guess it is hard for you to understand the degree of threat that looms over Israel.

Futhermore, the fact that Israel in twelve days has killed only 500 Palestinians, the majority of which are Hamas terrorists ( a bit of information that the media is trying to shove under the carpet) shows the level of restraint Israel is using. If Israel were to bring its full capabilities to bear, Gaza would have been nothing but sandbox right now and there would not be any Palestinians alive at all. We would have been hearing about thousands of people dead just in the first few hours on day one had Israel went into the conflict just to kill Palestinians.

Israel has kept the civilian casualties as low as possible, but no one can fight a sanitary war. Civilian casualties are a part of any war, and they are certainly a part of a war where groups like Hamas position themselves among the civilians. Israel is not using "proportionate" responses. If they did, they would simply let the bombs fall whereever and they would indiscrimately and aimlessly just fire missiles at whoever moves.

That is the part you seem to either forget about or ignore. Hamas purposefully does not fight out in the open away from the cities and population centers. They purposefully use their own children and women as human shields, and THAT is the reason the civilian casualty is as high as it is. It is squarely the fault of Hamas for placing their own people in harm's way just to get a few propanda points, but judging from your comments, it works.