I have a question.

[Guest HIS girl]

Ah, yes God made man knowing they would indeed fall but He didn't make man to SET him up to fall...BIG DIFFERENCE.

He made man to have a relationship with Him - not to seperate.

Jesus died on the cross to reconcile man to Himself/God - to return to the original plan - of the intimate relationship.

larryt

And freewill - a voluntary decision - you don't agree?

Why would you want a relationship with someone who is forced or made to love you? Wouldn't you want their love to be a willing love for you?

Do you think our life on Earth is all about relationships? God is all about relationships and reconciling man to Himself. Think about it. Loving your enemies...loving your neighbours...relationships - not seperation. Jesus forgave those while He was on the Cross...loving people - not isolating them.

Just a little point. We are not "forced" to love GOD. GOD touches those HE loves with a touch of HIS love. "We (the saved) love HIM because HE first loved us". We love HIM as a result of HIM loving us. The only response to being loved by GOD is to love HIM back, thus the word "because".

Was that reply for me or larryt?

He is the one who does not believe in freewill - not me.

I am not saying God forces us to love Him....

He gave us freewill and in that freewill we have the choice to accept His love and to return it by being obedient to Him.

[kross]

Ah, yes God made man knowing they would indeed fall but He didn't make man to SET him up to fall...BIG DIFFERENCE.

He made man to have a relationship with Him - not to seperate.

Jesus died on the cross to reconcile man to Himself/God - to return to the original plan - of the intimate relationship.

larryt

And freewill - a voluntary decision - you don't agree?

Why would you want a relationship with someone who is forced or made to love you? Wouldn't you want their love to be a willing love for you?

Do you think our life on Earth is all about relationships? God is all about relationships and reconciling man to Himself. Think about it. Loving your enemies...loving your neighbours...relationships - not seperation. Jesus forgave those while He was on the Cross...loving people - not isolating them.

Just a little point. We are not "forced" to love GOD. GOD touches those HE loves with a touch of HIS love. "We (the saved) love HIM because HE first loved us". We love HIM as a result of HIM loving us. The only response to being loved by GOD is to love HIM back, thus the word "because".

Was that reply for me or larryt?

He is the one who does not believe in freewill - not me.

I am not saying God forces us to love Him....

He gave us freewill and in that freewill we have the choice to accept His love and to return it by being obedient to Him.

I am also one who doesn't believe the "will of men" is truly "free". Our wills are captive to sin and Satan until we are set free by the HOLY SPIRIT. "He who the SON sets free, is free..." until that time, clearly, we are not freewill agents. Does this mean that we do not make simple "freewill" choices? Even as bond slaves of JESUS we make certain choices that could be considered "freewill" choices.

If a person has responded to the love of JESUS by giving HIM their life, then it is no longer they who it belongs to, but CHRIST. If HE wants you to make a particular choice, HE will touch your heart in a way that will make HIS will your own. HE can also choose to not interfere with your "freewill" and let you make bad choices.

So, however much of that is considered "freewill" is as much free will as we have. Our freewill is never more powerful than GOD's will. We devise plans in our hearts, but it is GOD's plans that are carried out.

[larryt]

No - the question that has been unanswered is this: Did God create some men for the purpose of sending them to Hell?

That question stems from the notion that God chose certain people for Paradise and others for Hell - pre creation.

That is the question.

If we have that notion then there is no need for freewill (which we all know we are blessed with) and no need for Jesus to save anyone.

I think there are people here deliberately ignoring the crux of what I am getting at.

Funny that.

You are basing you reasoning on the idea of "free will".

Please define free will. I do not believe in free will. When Adam fell his will was corrupted along with all other aspects of his being, and mad subject to his fallen nature. His will was free to do what it would - hate God. It was no longer capable of or desiring to seek God. Adam hid himself.

LT

Well Larryt if you don,t believe in free will then there are some scriptures that deak with a "Free Will" offering to God in the old testament and if you don't believe in all of the word of God you are not in proper relationship with God. You are selectively believing or in other words a double minded man.

The word 'freewill" is used 16 times in the old testament to speak of a freewill offering top God and one time to speak of the "freewill" of men. In EZRA 2:68 the word of God speaks of how the "chief of the fathers of Israel" gave or offered freely (IE without any pressure from God) for the "House of God" IE money and material to re- build the house of God. In Psalm 54:6 speaks of freely sacrificing to God.

IN 2 Corinthians Paul speaks of how he preaches the Gospel of God freely. That is by his own choice and not by the controlling influence of God.

There is more scripture to record about how we have free will to choose to offer our lives to God or not but these are enough.

Your argument against free will has no support in scripture so you are getting it from some other ungodly word. Some body has deceived you Larryt.

Hi Massorite,

I defined free will and I do not believe I am deceived in this area. YOU cannot love God on your own. You need Him to love you first.

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

LT

[Massorite]

No - the question that has been unanswered is this: Did God create some men for the purpose of sending them to Hell?

That question stems from the notion that God chose certain people for Paradise and others for Hell - pre creation.

That is the question.

If we have that notion then there is no need for freewill (which we all know we are blessed with) and no need for Jesus to save anyone.

I think there are people here deliberately ignoring the crux of what I am getting at.

Funny that.

You are basing you reasoning on the idea of "free will".

Please define free will. I do not believe in free will. When Adam fell his will was corrupted along with all other aspects of his being, and mad subject to his fallen nature. His will was free to do what it would - hate God. It was no longer capable of or desiring to seek God. Adam hid himself.

LT

Well Larryt if you don,t believe in free will then there are some scriptures that speak with a "Free Will" offering to God in the old testament and if you don't believe in all of the word of God you are not in proper relationship with God. You are selectively believing or in other words a double minded man.

The word 'freewill" is used 16 times in the old testament to speak of a freewill offering top God and one time to speak of the "freewill" of men. In EZRA 2:68 the word of God speaks of how the "chief of the fathers of Israel" gave or offered freely (IE without any pressure from God) for the "House of God" IE money and material to re- build the house of God. In Psalm 54:6 speaks of freely sacrificing to God.

IN 2 Corinthians Paul speaks of how he preaches the Gospel of God freely. That is by his own choice and not by the controlling influence of God.

There is more scripture to record about how we have free will to choose to offer our lives to God or not but these are enough.

Your argument against free will has no support in scripture so you are getting it from some other ungodly word. Some body has deceived you Larryt.

Paul specifically taught that he preached the gospel against his will and by the will of GOD. Not only in the opening of his letters but in 1Cor.9:16-17,

" For I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship."

Without looking it up I can tell you Paul's statement about preaching the gospel "freely" refers to unhindered or at no cost. He is very clear about being a bond slave to JESUS who was bought with a price.

Where is this one scripture that speaks of "freewill" of men?

2 Corinthians 11:7

So your saying that there is a scriptural contradiction? In Matthew 10:8 Jesus His Self tells us that Freely we have been given and Freely we should Give. In Matthew 10:8 and 2 Corinthians 11:7 the word "freely" is speaking of doing it gratuitously or without a cause or of our own free will and according to Jesus and Paul in both of these verses the word freely is speaking about preaching the Gospel of Christ of their own free will. According to the Strong's and other research tools.

So where in the bible does it say that Paul is preaching the Gospel of Christ because God is forcing him to preach.

In 1 Corinthians 7:22 Paul calls a servant of the Lord a freeman as in completely free with no obligations to any one except those he chooses to obligate himself to and in this case it is Christ. In this same verse Paul talks about someone is called being free (to choose his calling) is Christ's servant. (If he chooses Christ)

Paul calls himself a bond servant or slave of Christ but that is because he chose to be a bond servant of Christ not because he was forced to be one.

[kross]

No - the question that has been unanswered is this: Did God create some men for the purpose of sending them to Hell?

That question stems from the notion that God chose certain people for Paradise and others for Hell - pre creation.

That is the question.

If we have that notion then there is no need for freewill (which we all know we are blessed with) and no need for Jesus to save anyone.

I think there are people here deliberately ignoring the crux of what I am getting at.

Funny that.

You are basing you reasoning on the idea of "free will".

Please define free will. I do not believe in free will. When Adam fell his will was corrupted along with all other aspects of his being, and mad subject to his fallen nature. His will was free to do what it would - hate God. It was no longer capable of or desiring to seek God. Adam hid himself.

LT

Well Larryt if you don,t believe in free will then there are some scriptures that speak with a "Free Will" offering to God in the old testament and if you don't believe in all of the word of God you are not in proper relationship with God. You are selectively believing or in other words a double minded man.

The word 'freewill" is used 16 times in the old testament to speak of a freewill offering top God and one time to speak of the "freewill" of men. In EZRA 2:68 the word of God speaks of how the "chief of the fathers of Israel" gave or offered freely (IE without any pressure from God) for the "House of God" IE money and material to re- build the house of God. In Psalm 54:6 speaks of freely sacrificing to God.

IN 2 Corinthians Paul speaks of how he preaches the Gospel of God freely. That is by his own choice and not by the controlling influence of God.

There is more scripture to record about how we have free will to choose to offer our lives to God or not but these are enough.

Your argument against free will has no support in scripture so you are getting it from some other ungodly word. Some body has deceived you Larryt.

Paul specifically taught that he preached the gospel against his will and by the will of GOD. Not only in the opening of his letters but in 1Cor.9:16-17,

" For I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship."

Without looking it up I can tell you Paul's statement about preaching the gospel "freely" refers to unhindered or at no cost. He is very clear about being a bond slave to JESUS who was bought with a price.

Where is this one scripture that speaks of "freewill" of men?

2 Corinthians 11:7

So your saying that there is a scriptural contradiction? In Matthew 10:8 Jesus His Self tells us that Freely we have been given and Freely we should Give. In Matthew 10:8 and 2 Corinthians 11:7 the word "freely" is speaking of doing it gratuitously or without a cause or of our own free will and according to Jesus and Paul in both of these verses the word freely is speaking about preaching the Gospel of Christ of their own free will. According to the Strong's and other research tools.

So where in the bible does it say that Paul is preaching the Gospel of Christ because God is forcing him to preach.

In 1 Corinthians 7:22 Paul calls a servant of the Lord a freeman as in completely free with no obligations to any one except those he chooses to obligate himself to and in this case it is Christ. In this same verse Paul talks about someone is called being free (to choose his calling) is Christ's servant. (If he chooses Christ)

Paul calls himself a bond servant or slave of Christ but that is because he chose to be a bond servant of Christ not because he was forced to be one.

First of all, you really have misunderstood these verses. JESUS and Paul say you recieved it as a gift that cost you nothing, therefore give it away without charging anyone for it.

1Cor 7:22 (NKJV) "...while he is a slave is the LORD freedman..." freed from sin and Satan and from any do's and don'ts of men. Nothing in this statement refers to free will as you are applying it.

Where are you seeing that the scripture I quoted is contradicting a scripture in the Bible? The Bible never contradicts. Paul always refers to himself as a slave of GOD. He says he is preaching the gospel against his will, how is there a contradiction?

[Guest HIS girl]

'kross'

I am also one who doesn't believe the "will of men" is truly "free". Our wills are captive to sin and Satan until we are set free by the HOLY SPIRIT. "He who the SON sets free, is free..." until that time, clearly, we are not freewill agents. Does this mean that we do not make simple "freewill" choices? Even as bond slaves of JESUS we make certain choices that could be considered "freewill" choices.

If a person has responded to the love of JESUS by giving HIM their life, then it is no longer they who it belongs to, but CHRIST. If HE wants you to make a particular choice, HE will touch your heart in a way that will make HIS will your own. HE can also choose to not interfere with your "freewill" and let you make bad choices.

So, however much of that is considered "freewill" is as much free will as we have. Our freewill is never more powerful than GOD's will. We devise plans in our hearts, but it is GOD's plans that are carried out.

I have a problem -

So..the Fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden - huge incident..catasrophic...and God didn't step in to steer Eve away from the tree or something to that effect? He let her do completely how she felt at the time?

That sounds to me like complete freewill and from the outset.

Once becoming a Christian - yes the Holy Spirit guides us to do/say what's right - NEVER forcing us. We as Christians may or may not heed the Holy Spirit and if not, then suffer the outcome of our own decisions. The way you put forth your reply makes it sound like God is forceful once we are Saved. I have NEVER found Him to be such. He has always dealt with me in a gentle persausive manner even when I have resisted. God knows what is right for me, even when I don't. I want to be like Jesus and do what He wants because I love Him ( a free act on my behalf) and I don't believe for a moment that the Holy Spirit forces me into it once I'm saved.

If a person has responded to the love of JESUS by giving HIM their life, then it is no longer they who it belongs to, but CHRIST.

And that response is out of freewill (after the Holy Spirit pursuing with gentleness) - they no longer want to walk their old path but have now stepped onto the path that leads to Life. It's not a robotic obedience. Salvation is like a freewill offering - I have so much freedom now I am His - whereas before I was constricted by sociological rules and stereotypical boundaries.

[Anne]

If God is LOVE and I was in God's thoughts before creation to be birthed within His earthly creation - does it make sense then that God would deliberately create ME in order to send me to Hell?

Would that be regarded as LOVE?

Just a thought.

I did read the replys to your question but thought it best to answer from the start..........hope I put this across right. You are thinking what you would do in your situation, you and I are not God so it is unfair for us to speculate, because we do not understand God's reasoning..........I know that God is love, God is understanding and God is vengenance and I know God would not create someone simply to destroy them.

I'll tell you what a true father does, He stands by His children and tells them the truth, even if they do not want to hear it

God did not create you in order to destroy you.......the best way I can explain it to you is, God created you so that you could understand His love.

But the most important thing you must remember is God created nations and He looks after each and every one of them.

Does that make sense?

Anne

God keep you in His arms

[Guest HIS girl]

If God is LOVE and I was in God's thoughts before creation to be birthed within His earthly creation - does it make sense then that God would deliberately create ME in order to send me to Hell?

Would that be regarded as LOVE?

Just a thought.

I did read the replys to your question but thought it best to answer from the start..........hope I put this across right. You are thinking what you would do in your situation, you and I are not God so it is unfair for us to speculate, because we do not understand God's reasoning..........I know that God is love, God is understanding and God is vengenance and I know God would not create someone simply to destroy them.

I'll tell you what a true father does, He stands by His children and tells them the truth, even if they do not want to hear it

God did not create you in order to destroy you.......the best way I can explain it to you is, God created you so that you could understand His love.

But the most important thing you must remember is God created nations and He looks after each and every one of them.

Does that make sense?

Anne

God keep you in His arms

Thanks Anne for that and hopefully there are some out there that read you response.

I for one am not of the thinking that some were created especially for destruction. I put the question out there to find out why people believe this notion.

[Smalcald]

'Smalcald'

"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

How do we get around that scripture, it is very direct.

So you believe there ARE people who were created for destruction solely for the purpose of God's Power being shown and known?

Well I can only go by what the scripture says. It says

"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory

Is this a one time case? Maybe I don't know, we don't know. I think we must be careful giving God attributes which may feel good and righteous to us from our point of view. I don't know the mind of God as Paul says "who does know the mind of God, who is Counselor?

[Anne]

I don't think you've quite understood me "His"

What i'm trying to say is do not put yourself in a position in which you believe you have the right to judge.

sorry

don't mean to hurt