I have a question.

[Guest shiloh357]

Reading what you have said here reminds me of the shows where you see law enforcement setting up inticements to sin. Have you ever watched where they'll park the lone car on the street of a place known for a lot of car theft actually hoping the culprits will take the bait? The unsuspecting criminal gets in, takes off and is overjoyed at the stupidity of the ficticious victim. Then, when the car's engine is deactivated, the doors lock, and law enforement come roaring in... the music is over... time to pay the fiddler!

That is not the same as my scenario. In the scenario you describe there is no incitement. The criminal could just walk away. I described a scenario where the policeman actually gets the prostitute to commit the act with him and then arrests her for it. That is illegal. What you are describing is sting operation, which is perfectly legal. So, I am not sure if you are trying to agree with me or not...

QUOTE

The Bible does not present the sovereignty of God in such a manner. The Bible NOWHERE says God purposes or plans for man to sin. Nowhere does the Bible say that the present sinful condition is just exactly as God intended. The garbage is simply not Christianity.

Do you believe anyone who believes along these lines is not Christian?

What I am saying is that it is not a teaching that is in line with biblical Christianity. Those who hold to God planning and purposing man to be sinful and to be at enmity with God might be saved, but they are in grave error at such a basic foundational level, that anything built on that warped foundation will be equally as warped and their theology should be taken seriously or treated as a viable point of view. Any view that ultimately places man's sin at God's doorstep is a reproach to God's character.

Maybe... just maybe... it's the way in whick Kross or others explain their interpretations that is the problem with you. I sometimes see the intent of their statements but I think I may have worded it different. Is it really sloppy or non-Christian of them?

Yes it is both sloppy and nonChristian. I have in other threads given kross ample oppoortunity to clarify his position. I used the example of a 14 year old girl who was kidnapped, raped and murdered here in my town a few weeks ago. I asked kross if this fell within the purview of God's will. I asked him if God wanted this to occur, and He said, "Yes." I can post the entire exchange if you want. It's over in the doctrinal section.

[Annette443pink]

Interesting that Satan was originally an angel and in the very presence of God, yet he turned against God. Then men were created. For some reason, men choose hell over God. I can't explain that kind of choice.

[dcampsart]

Exactly. There was one that was struggling, and went unnoticed, and it does my heart good to see that another "sees" this. Thank you for your heart in this.

Please... better to thank God for continually revealing where I miss it and the grace to repent!

It's all well and good to sit around discussing/arguing the way of this and that - but not if it takes our focus off of others in need. I don't normally get involved in discussions that have been subjects of debates for centuries. Cleary they have scriptural support for both sides - else there'd be no basis for debate. And in these matters it doesn't bring about nor does it hinder ones own salvation. My concern is when a hurting person feels that he has missed the mark and there is no need to continue searching for answers, and in some cases, to continue living. If we cannot reach out to these people that are under our own feet, then what good is it to have the assurance of great theological matters? What good does it do us? What good does it do the body to have the answers but no compassion or empathy for the hurting?

Yessss! If I understand all mysteries and have all knowledge and have no love... I am NOTHING - period. I've read where people have used the idea that people of the Calvinistic camp are so smug in their comfort zone as elitists they don't feel the need to evangelize. I don't believe that to be true but irregardless, if I really believed the salvation of a man's soul was God's work and had nothing to do with man's free-will, I would still continue to seek the "called" or elect. Just the other day, in my office at work, I had a wonderful opportunity to witness to a man I work with uninterrupted for maybe an hour. Lets say that this man was chosen or elected by God and I believed he's premarked for salvation, in other words, nothing... not even his own will is going to get in the way, I wouldn't DARE tell him my beliefs about election initially for fear it may turn him away as the guest in the other thread sadly declared. Several times, the man I witnessed the Gospel to, had to fight back tears... he admitted to it later. He seemed very moved and glued to what I had to say. I couldn't imagine his reaction if I gave him reasons to believe he may not be one of the called. The pain and remorse I would've felt if the man would've got up sadly and left the office feeling... what's the use!

I claim neither Calvinism nor Arminianism. I claim to be a believer in Christ only - and am in full assurance that Almighty God is just and good and loving. I leave the details of His Will and His plan in His wonderful hands. He will reveal to me what I need to know as I need to know it. In the meantime there is much work to be done in the kingdom. There are many "others" out there that wonder if it's worth pursuing, and I need to polish up on my "yes it is" scriptures.[/quoe]

I couldn't have said it better. I do not claim to be of either camp also. I still want to find a balance in all of this but I also want to be cognizant of the importance of my motive and to be on the alert for any signs that I'm blinded by my zeal! I do want to continue participating in the debates that go on in here about man's will versus God's will for I find it all, frustrating at times but very stimulating to ponder. I will, however, watch what's happening when someone posts, like the guest over in the Seekers Lounge, and maybe "check my six" realizing the enemy is approaching from behind and about to steal the word out of a nonbelieve's heart. We shouldn't be unaware of his devices! Thanks...

[Guest HIS girl]

'larryt'

I am concerned with the "what saith the Lord."

That's my whole point.

God does not need to make men destined for Hell simply to show His Glory - God does not need ANYTHING to show His Glory - just the existence of God is enough.

larry - So all of history is irrelevant. God didn't need to do it so why did He bother?

Huh? Did I ever say history was "irrelevant"? History has nothing to do with making God "look good" - I simply stated God does not need any of us to show His Glory. He is self sustaining in ALL areas.

Of course God rejects those that continue in rebellion of His Word - sin. That is a non brainer - my argument IS - there is hope and reconciliation offered to ALL men. We start off on an even playing field.Larry-

It is not a matter of man continuing to rebel. God didn't have to save anybody.

If man chooses to reject Him and rebel against His Word then God will be seperate from the sinner - Habakkuk 1v13a: You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness.

The Gospel is not: Oh please let God do this or that for you.

Th Gospel is: Repent of your sins and Christ will accept you.

Have I ever leaned toward this view? Flat out NO. Don't try and twist my words to suit your argument larry.

God commands all men everywhere to repent. Those that are the elect will do so, showing/revealing that they are the elect. Those that do not repent are not of the elect and show that they aren't.

Is this your thinking or 'copied" thinking borrowed from another?

I haven't read every word of those theologians and Bible teachers/Preachers etc you quoted before and SURE they may hold the same views as you - SO WHAT?

I am led first and foremost by the Holy Spirit - not by man.

Yes, they obviously would have good points too and led also by the Spirit BUT that does not mean I have to agree with every 'interpretation" they may have of the Bible. I try to trust in what the HS shows ME - for me to take MY own eyes off the Bible and simply agree with every doctrine under the sun is going to confuse my OWN Walk - Yes we can learn from them, but we don't base our whole thinking around another mans word. I stick to the Word and what it has to say to me.

Thanks larry.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I have removed several posts here that went personal, IMO. I have also snipped some words from some posts.

Here is a snippet from the Terms of Service here;

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18)

Please be mindful of this in the future so that the thread does not get closed. Also be mindful of the admonition not to spread your Doctrinal debate to all areas of the Board. One thread is enough and if it is cropping up everywhere it will be removed or the threads will be closed. This is a longstanding Board policy that has been practiced as long as I have been a Mod here. We are not primarily a Ministry that is driven by Doctrine although Doctrine is a huge part of our Faith. We are a non-denominational Ministry whose focus is Jesus Christ. If we lift Him up on High, all men will see Him and so be drawn to Him, and be Saved. It isn't us or our Doctrines that matter above all else. It is Christ Jesus who Saves. When we lift up our Doctrinal debates above Christ, the focus of this Ministry, all folks see is us and believe me, upside of Jesus the daisys of the field pale, let alone you and I.

Peace,

Dave

[dcampsart]

I am not sure if you are trying to agree with me or not...

Yes. I was attempting to agree with you... guess I didn't make myself clear.

[larryt]

HIS girl

God does not need to make men destined for Hell simply to show His Glory - God does not need ANYTHING to show His Glory - just the existence of God is enough.

larry - So all of history is irrelevant. God didn't need to do it so why did He bother?

Huh? Did I ever say history was "irrelevant"? History has nothing to do with making God "look good" - I simply stated God does not need any of us to show His Glory. He is self sustaining in ALL areas.

Dear H-g,

Sorry if I misinterpreted your statements. Read my statement as in response to your statements. I agree that God does not need to show off His glory but He does and is demonstrating it throughout history. I agree He is self sustaining in all areas and does not need us for anything but He did decide to use man to show forth His glory in history.

I am really trying to follow your train of thought. It might help if you would elaborate a little bit.

If man chooses to reject Him and rebel against His Word then God will be seperate from the sinner - Habakkuk 1v13a: You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness.

Man does not need to choose to reject God. He is born in rebellion and chose to reject God in Adam. It is only by the grace of God that man is not already wiped off the face of the earth.

God commands all men everywhere to repent. Those that are the elect will do so, showing/revealing that they are the elect. Those that do not repent are not of the elect and show that they aren't.

Is this your thinking or 'copied" thinking borrowed from another?

This is right out of the scripture. Would you like me to show you?

I haven't read every word of those theologians and Bible teachers/Preachers etc you quoted before and SURE they may hold the same views as you - SO WHAT?

I am led first and foremost by the Holy Spirit - not by man.

Yes, they obviously would have good points too and led also by the Spirit BUT that does not mean I have to agree with every 'interpretation" they may have of the Bible. I try to trust in what the HS shows ME - for me to take MY own eyes off the Bible and simply agree with every doctrine under the sun is going to confuse my OWN Walk - Yes we can learn from them, but we don't base our whole thinking around another mans word. I stick to the Word and what it has to say to me.

Thanks larry.

You are welcome.

How would you know it what you believe is the same as those true Christians that were in the past unless you read what they said.

If I read the bible and I come up with the same doctrine as previous Christians then I can be reasonably sure my doctrine is correct and that I have the same Holy Spirit as all other Christians. Paul said there are other Gospels, other Jesus', and other spirits and we need to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

Those that have gone before are a good barometer for our doctrine in the present.

When the Word says that God has chosen you unto salvation, if means just that. God chose!!!!!

Does "chose" mean chose or does it mean something else?

LT

[kross]

It simply makes sense to me that if GOD, before HE created anything, could see that the way HE was going to create the world was going to result in the fall/ sin entering the world and HE did not want this to happen, then HE would have changed the way HE was going to create it. To say that GOD could see how HIS creation was going to turn out before HE created it, and created it so that it turned out that way...

I except that there are those who do not agree.

I believe in a GOD who is in control and exercises control. As it states in Thess. there is a restraining force on the evil in the world. Evil only goes as far as GOD allows.

"Stating it in its baldest form the point now to be considered is, Has GOD fore-ordained certain ones to damnation? That many will be eternally damned is clear from scripture, that each one will be judged according to his works and reap as he has sown, and that in consequence his "damnation is just" (romans3:8) is equally sure, and that GOD decreed that the non-elect should choose the course they follow we will now undertake to prove." Arthur W. Pink from The Soveriegnty of GOD.

I only put this quote out here so that those who read this thread will know that this teaching is not unique to me and that it was a widely held belief in the earlier doctrins of the church. I do not anticipate that Mr. Pink will garner anymore appreciation for his understanding of this doctrin than I have. In fact, he writes in his book that most people like to smooth over this point even when they believe that GD chooses whom HE saves.

There is a certain truth that is universal to all sides of the issue;

Salvation comes to those who place their faith in JESUS CHRIST. It doesn't matter whether you think HE chose you or you chose HIM. Equally true is the fact that GOD establishing who HE will not save does not alter the position of the person who is saved. For salvation comes in the exact same way to all who are saved regardless of either doctrin. It is by faith in JESUS CHRIST alone.

For me, it is a great comfort to know that everything that exists is established and ordained by, and under the control of, the GOD who has made such wonderful promises to me. If I could for one moment believe that GOD created this world with a particular plan that went wrong, then I could not believe HIM to be able to create the next one correctly. My absolute trust in GOD is premised on my belief that HE never fails, doesn't make mistakes and is perfect in all of HIS ways. That HE can accomplish all HE has stated HE will do is certain in me because I know HE has accomplished all HE has set out to do.

I could pull out the scriptures from Mr. Pink's book and his explainations. I could pull out the scriptures and commentaries of others as well. Then someone would pull out commentaries from those on the other side of the issues and it still would not matter.

Each person who reads the scriptures and studies for themselves, will come an understanding. Whether it be a trust in the absolute soveriegn GOD that I believe in or the absolute sovereign GOD that someone else believes in, really doesn't matter that much. GOD doesn't need me to defend HIM, HE is not judged by us.

I have come to understand the things I have by the reading of The Word. Others have deduced the exact opposit by the very same Word. I certainly do not pass judgement on them or their understanding. Now we now in part, we see as through a dark glass. When we stand with HIM, we will know in total.

[kross]

God hardened Pharoah's heart by refusing to soften it. God did not force Pharoah to make the choices He made, but God knowing Pharaoh's hardness continued to incite it, thus making Pharoah more and more hardened.

3 And I will harden Pharaoh

[Guest HIS girl]

'larryt'

Dear H-g,

Sorry if I misinterpreted your statements. Read my statement as in response to your statements. I agree that God does not need to show off His glory but He does and is demonstrating it throughout history. I agree He is self sustaining in all areas and does not need us for anything but He did decide to use man to show forth His glory in history.

I am really trying to follow your train of thought. It might help if you would elaborate a little bit.

You know larry - I'm soo way tired of repeating myself -

HIS girl - If man chooses to reject Him and rebel against His Word then God will be seperate from the sinner - Habakkuk 1v13a: You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness.

larryt - Man does not need to choose to reject God. He is born in rebellion and chose to reject God in Adam. It is only by the grace of God that man is not already wiped off the face of the earth.

HIS girl - God did wipe mankind off the face of the earth but for one family - Noah, and his family- who was a righteous man. God continued fellowship with man through Noah and beyond. God WANTED to CONTINUE fellowship with mankind. God COULD have wiped man forever but it shows God's love for His Creation - MAN.

LARRYT - God commands all men everywhere to repent. Those that are the elect will do so, showing/revealing that they are the elect. Those that do not repent are not of the elect and show that they aren't.

HIS girl - Is this your thinking or 'copied" thinking borrowed from another?

larryt - This is right out of the scripture. Would you like me to show you?

HIS girl

I have issue with elect being pre-creation, NOT once Saved...don't you get it yet? Of course once man is Saved from their sins, they are in a different category to the unsaved. Like I said - it is about exclusiveness PRE-creation, the notion of God WANTING to save some and wanting to REJECT others...and WHY reject those? - JUST to show God's Glory? I won't accept that.

HIS girl

I haven't read every word of those theologians and Bible teachers/Preachers etc you quoted before and SURE they may hold the same views as you - SO WHAT?

I am led first and foremost by the Holy Spirit - not by man.

Yes, they obviously would have good points too and led also by the Spirit BUT that does not mean I have to agree with every 'interpretation" they may have of the Bible. I try to trust in what the HS shows ME - for me to take MY own eyes off the Bible and simply agree with every doctrine under the sun is going to confuse my OWN Walk - Yes we can learn from them, but we don't base our whole thinking around another mans word. I stick to the Word and what it has to say to me.

larryt

How would you know it what you believe is the same as those true Christians that were in the past unless you read what they said.

If I read the bible and I come up with the same doctrine as previous Christians then I can be reasonably sure my doctrine is correct and that I have the same Holy Spirit as all other Christians. Paul said there are other Gospels, other Jesus', and other spirits and we need to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

Those that have gone before are a good barometer for our doctrine in the present.

HIS girl

I see what you are saying and I appreciate the points that ARE valid in your answer and I will also add, it is MORE wise to keep our minds focused on the Word as opposed to mans thinking and trends of the time. Not saying that is what these teachers etc are. Remember Jesus shook up the establishment with His Words and He was the WORD in Flesh... To be led by the Holy Spirit is wise. I cannot say anymore than that.

I think that whatever I say, you will have a bone to pick.