Seven Major Prophetic Signs Of The Second Coming

[nebula]

Rufus -

Did the Medes destroy Babylon as Isaiah prophecied?

And do yo beleive those pictures of Babylon I found are false?

[givennewname]

Dear Brother,

Non of what is quoted above fits the prophesy of Isaiah nor Jeramiah.

Correction: the fulfillment of the prophesies of Isaiah and Jeremiah do not conform to your idea of how things ought to have played out. Nevertheless, the cities called Babylon were destroyed along with the political entities that resided in them. God gave the prophecy;the details of how He chooses to fulfill it is up to Him.

The question to ask of each text, especially each prophetic oracle, is "What is the point of this passage?" Be aware, too, that the prophets spoke and wrote poetically. Not to read them that way is dangerously naive and foolish. The prophets wrote mostly in three different types of oracle - the woe, the lawsuit and the promise. Isaiah 13 is an example of the "Woe" style.

*edited for redundancy

Wehn Jesus says that the word of God will last forever and that not an iota nor a jot will be changed, and all of it will be fullfilled-literally. Changing the word "Mede" to Persian or Assyrian and allowing just a few of Saddam's constructed palaces to defy the written words of prophesy to fit your interpretation of fulfilled prophesy in the name of poetic licence is still changing scipture to fit yr prophetic interpretation. Anyways Babylon is still spoken of in Revelation, which means whatever version of Babylon that you care to call it still exist until end times. It means that Babylon will be rebuilt and destroyed again as said in the Book of Revelation. No matter how long we have to wait for the Word of God to come to pass, God says to wait for the appointed time of prophesy as said in the book of Habbakuk.

What is the point of this passage?"

The point is that the Godless city of Babylon who relects the Godless political system of the word, the false system of worship of idols and the pride of human acheivement and the political word of empire expansion through violence will surely not escape the judgement of God and will be destroyed by God himself. Whether it is prophesied by Isaiah, Jeremiah or John who wrote Revelations. So far i still see the political system of false worship of false Gods and worldly gods still with us. So how could Babylon be already destroyed? If it is, another so called babylon will still be rebuilt.

Rant and rave all you want to, the fact remains that Babylon is destroyed and being wilfully blind to the facts doesn't change that. God fulfills prophecy in a time and manner of His own choosing, not yours. You are making the same mistake the Jews did when they started looking for the Messiah. He didn't come in the manner they expected Him to, so they rejected Him. In effect, you're calling God a liar.

Rant and rave all you want to, the fact remains that Babylon is destroyed and being wilfully blind to the facts doesn't change that. God fulfills prophecy in a time and manner of His own choosing, not yours. You are making the same mistake the Jews did when they started looking for the Messiah. He didn't come in the manner they expected Him to, so they rejected Him. In effect, you're calling God a liar.

Rufus, nobody believes what you have written and have convinced no one with the evidence so far presented. IN fact many facts and evidence given would not uphold a case in a secular court. Dates are wrong, persons and circumstances and degree of destruction are all wrong.. Babylon is yet mentioned in Revelations alive and well.

Babylon is destroyed and being wilfully blind to the facts doesn't change that. God fulfills prophecy in a time and manner of His own choosing, not yours.

Not ranting and raving and neither am i asking God to fulfill prophecy according to my expectation. Just taking God at his word literally and not changing scriptures. Jesus may not have come the way they have expected but he came and fulfilled scriptures in Isaiah literally. So why should the scriptures be interpreted in a different fashion as regards to prophecy regarding Babylon?

you're calling God a liar.

In what way am i calling God a Liar?? I am taking Go'd's spoken word at face value and expecting God to do what he has said. Jesus says not a dot nor an iota will be changed... I take Jesus at face value and expect that scriptures will be fulfilled that way. I do not twist history nor the events of Babylon to fit scriptures

[OneLight]

I have heard that Babylon the Great is either another great city or a false religion. Personally, I don't know what these words are referring to. I have not taken the time to research deeply on the subject.

[glorywatch]

It is my understanding that Babylon of Revelation is indeed a metaphor for the evil world power and all that it represents. Babylon in Isaiah was part of the Assyrian empire and the rallying point of rebellion against God, which is why John used the name Babylon as the name of the world powers that will oppose God in the end.

[stacey c]

I have heard that Babylon the Great is either another great city or a false religion. Personally, I don't know what these words are referring to. I have not taken the time to research deeply on the subject.

I've heard it was a false religion also. Although I don't necessasarily believe it's the religious system that I heard it reffered to.

[nebula]

Rufus, nobody believes what you have written and have convinced no one with the evidence so far presented. IN fact many facts and evidence given would not uphold a case in a secular court. Dates are wrong, persons and circumstances and degree of destruction are all wrong.. Babylon is yet mentioned in Revelations alive and well.

This is called argumentum ad populum, "appeal to the people." Trouble is, you're not supposed to be popular, you're supposed to be right. Babylon is destroyed and God said it will not be inhabited again. Do you believe that or not?

Yes, there have been attempts to rebuild/repopulate it; but they have not been and will not be successfull.

But he made an interesting point that wasn't answered:

Isaiah prophecied Babylon would be destroyed by the Medes.

Senecacherib (sp?) was not a Mede, nor was Cyrus.

So, how do you reconcile this?

Assume for a minute that God really means what He says.

No one is questioning that.

It's interpretation we are having problems with. So please stop accusing with this falsehood.

Given that John is writing in a mix of prophetic, apocolyptic and epistlatory styles, that means that John is using Babylon in Revelation as a metaphor for something else. It is a word picture.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I'm still betting that Revelation is going to be played out much different than anyone ever guessed.

I have yet to encounter prophetic interpretation to be given accurately by anyone other than a prophet to whom the Lord enabled an understanding.

Unless you have evidence otherwise. . . .?

Edit: had to fix something

Edited February 10, 2009 by nebula

[givennewname]

Rufus, nobody believes what you have written and have convinced no one with the evidence so far presented. IN fact many facts and evidence given would not uphold a case in a secular court. Dates are wrong, persons and circumstances and degree of destruction are all wrong.. Babylon is yet mentioned in Revelations alive and well.

This is called argumentum ad populum, "appeal to the people." Trouble is, you're not supposed to be popular, you're supposed to be right. Babylon is destroyed and God said it will not be inhabited again. Do you believe that or not?

Yes, there have been attempts to rebuild/repopulate it; but they have not been and will not be successfull.

Assume for a minute that God really means what He says. Given that John is writing in a mix of prophetic, apocolyptic and epistlatory styles, that means that John is using Babylon in Revelation as a metaphor for something else. It is a word picture.

Babylon is destroyed and God said it will not be inhabited again. Do you believe that or not?

Babylon is destroyed many times and yet it has not been destroyed to the degree prophesied by Isaiah and Jeremiah and each time it has been rebuilt. Babylon was first build by Nimrod.. it was destroyed. Then the Tower of Babel was built it was destroyed and the city rebuilt.

Let us look at the prophesies by Isaiah and Jeremiah and see if the destruction of Babylon by Sennacherib or Cyrus fits what is prophesied by Isaiah or Jeremiah.

1) Babylon consists of 2 parts, the religious system of false worship introduced by Nimrod and his wife has spread worldwide (Represented by the Woman who drank the Martyr blood) called Mystery Babylon : Rev 17:5 and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. . There is then the political and economic Babylon ( the merchants who lament the destruction of Babylon). Rev 18:2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.

2) Babylon the city in Iraq exist right up to the time of the Roman empire. Sennacherib may may destroyed the city, it was rebuilt. Just because it was rebuilt does it means the prophesy was void? BTW the prophecies of Isaiah was not even written so how could it be void?

3) Cyrus the Persian captured the city of Babylon by means of deception. He entered the city without any fighting and captured the city not by superior warfare but by diverting the Euphrates River. Yet the Prophecies of Isaiah and Jeremiah prophesied great cruel war and bloodshed.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens to tremble, and the earth shall be shaken out of its place, in the wrath of Jehovah of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 13:14 And it shall come to pass, that as the chased roe, and as sheep that no man gathereth, they shall turn every man to his own people, and shall flee every man to his own land.

Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is taken shall fall by the sword.

It says everyone in Babylon shall be killed in the invasion... None of this is true in Cyrus's invasion of Babylon which was relatively blood free.

4) Babylon survives intact after the Cyrus attack and survives right up to Roman times... in fact the Emperor Vespasian conquered it. Julian the Apostate even destroyed the Walls. See the website of kings that ruled even by to the Byzantine empire.

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/tintirbabylon/persian.html. Babylon was destroyed through depopulation when the capital city of the Seleucid empire shifts from Babylon to a new city, thereafter the city loses prominence..through depopulation and not through war. It did not die through violent means... not till after Rev 18.

Why are you so surprised that there is reconstruction of Babylon by Saddam Hussein. Who is Saddam Hussein to defy God? The answer is that the Destruction of Babylon as prophesied by Isaiah and Jeremiah is the same destruction of Babylon recorded in Rev 18 and it has not happened yet.

[Massorite]

babylon will never be inhabited after it is destroyed like sodom and gomorrah. that hasn't happened yet.

Actually ancient Babylon has been destroyed. The remains of Babylon are to the west of Baghdad and the late Saddam was in the process of rebuilding the ancient city of Babylon when he was toppled. So far no one has picked up where he left off and no one lives there as of to day.

[givennewname]

Rufus, nobody believes what you have written and have convinced no one with the evidence so far presented. IN fact many facts and evidence given would not uphold a case in a secular court. Dates are wrong, persons and circumstances and degree of destruction are all wrong.. Babylon is yet mentioned in Revelations alive and well.

This is called argumentum ad populum, "appeal to the people." Trouble is, you're not supposed to be popular, you're supposed to be right. Babylon is destroyed and God said it will not be inhabited again. Do you believe that or not?

Yes, there have been attempts to rebuild/repopulate it; but they have not been and will not be successfull.

Assume for a minute that God really means what He says. Given that John is writing in a mix of prophetic, apocolyptic and epistlatory styles, that means that John is using Babylon in Revelation as a metaphor for something else. It is a word picture.

Babylon is destroyed and God said it will not be inhabited again. Do you believe that or not?

Babylon is destroyed many times and yet it has not been destroyed to the degree prophesied by Isaiah and Jeremiah and each time it has been rebuilt. Babylon was first build by Nimrod.. it was destroyed. Then the Tower of Babel was built it was destroyed and the city rebuilt.

Let us look at the prophesies by Isaiah and Jeremiah and see if the destruction of Babylon by Sennacherib or Cyrus fits what is prophesied by Isaiah or Jeremiah.

1) Babylon consists of 2 parts, the religious system of false worship introduced by Nimrod and his wife has spread worldwide (Represented by the Woman who drank the Martyr blood) called Mystery Babylon : Rev 17:5 and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. . There is then the political and economic Babylon ( the merchants who lament the destruction of Babylon). Rev 18:2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.

2) Babylon the city in Iraq exist right up to the time of the Roman empire. Sennacherib may may destroyed the city, it was rebuilt. Just because it was rebuilt does it means the prophesy was void? BTW the prophecies of Isaiah was not even written so how could it be void?

3) Cyrus the Persian captured the city of Babylon by means of deception. He entered the city without any fighting and captured the city not by superior warfare but by diverting the Euphrates River. Yet the Prophecies of Isaiah and Jeremiah prophesied great cruel war and bloodshed.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens to tremble, and the earth shall be shaken out of its place, in the wrath of Jehovah of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 13:14 And it shall come to pass, that as the chased roe, and as sheep that no man gathereth, they shall turn every man to his own people, and shall flee every man to his own land.

Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is taken shall fall by the sword.

It says everyone in Babylon shall be killed in the invasion... None of this is true in Cyrus's invasion of Babylon which was relatively blood free.

4) Babylon survives intact after the Cyrus attack and survives right up to Roman times... in fact the Emperor Vespasian conquered it. Julian the Apostate even destroyed the Walls. See the website of kings that ruled even by to the Byzantine empire.

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/tintirbabylon/persian.html. Babylon was destroyed through depopulation when the capital city of the Seleucid empire shifts from Babylon to a new city, thereafter the city loses prominence..through depopulation and not through war. It did not die through violent means... not till after Rev 18.

Why are you so surprised that there is reconstruction of Babylon by Saddam Hussein. Who is Saddam Hussein to defy God? The answer is that the Destruction of Babylon as prophesied by Isaiah and Jeremiah is the same destruction of Babylon recorded in Rev 18 and it has not happened yet.

Yet Babylon is destroyed, even though you may not want it to be.

I never said nor denied that Babylon is destroyed. Just say that it is not destroyed to the degree or in the manner described and prophesied by Isaiah and Jeremiah.

When God says it is destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah and it will not be rebuilt it means to the level seen in Rev 18, where the fire is seen by sailors and destruction is total. In Sodom and Gomorrah, not a trace of the city habitation can even be found. Ruins of Babylon have been excavated.. Buildings by Saddam surely do not fit with the prophesy. Neither does the manner of destruction of Babylon does not fit... the fall of Babylon is gradual, not instantaneous nor it is by war as prophesied.

I would not be surprised if the fall of Babylon as prophesied to be like Sodom and Gomorrah will be a nuclear strike.. I dunno, we wait and see.

[givennewname]

When God says it is destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah and it will not be rebuilt it means to the level seen in Rev 18, where the fire is seen by sailors and destruction is total.

There is no basis for this statement other than wild speculation. Where is the connection, given that Revelation was written roughly 800 years after Isaiah? You assume a linkage between the two where none exists.

In Sodom and Gomorrah, not a trace of the city habitation can even be found. Ruins of Babylon have been excavated.. Buildings by Saddam surely do not fit with the prophesy. Neither does the manner of destruction of Babylon does not fit... the fall of Babylon is gradual, not instantaneous nor it is by war as prophesied.

Again, you read into Isaiah 13:19 something that you want to see,i.e.,eisogesis. The verse does not say that Babylon would be destroyed in the same manner as Sodom and Gomorrah; it says that Babylon will be like Sodom and Gomorrah after its destruction:

19.And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them.

The fact remains: Babylon is destroyed, just as God said it would be.

The verse does not say that Babylon would be destroyed in the same manner as Sodom and Gomorrah; it says that Babylon will be like Sodom and Gomorrah after its destruction:

19.And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them.

Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them

It says what the Bible says- I don't find any trace of Sodom and Gomorrah.. If you go to Iraq Rufus, Babylon is in ruins and rebuilt.. Palaces, Ishtar gates.. ect.. I don't find rebuilt Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't even find ruins of Sodom and Gommorah. How much plainer do you want God to make the Bible? ""Will be like"" means it bears some resemblence. Babylon in Iraq is not in any way resembling Sodom unless i have a vision problem.

Babylon would be destroyed in the same manner as Sodom and Gomorrah

I never mention Babylon will be destroyed in the same manner, that is yr own opinion. If i remember correctly, Sodom in the book of Genesis was destroyed by hail fire and fire from heaven. I just speculated and it is my own speculation that the total destruction of Babylon in Rev 18 will be nuclear as the destruction could be seen miles away, aka a mushroom cloud. What is certain is that as prophesised in Isaiah, this Babylon will be destryed a in battle senario and not through a gradual depopulation process as that which happened to th Babylon in Iraq.