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I personally, have a lot of problems with President Obama. Politically speaking. But, there are a lot of things that causes my blood to boil and that is racism. This birth certificate scandal is completely and utterly about racism. God placed President Obama in that position for a reason, and I firmly believe that He will again come next year. There isn't another presidential candidate that has received so much doubt, and it is embarrassing, it is nothing more then a bunch of childishness. "bah! it's not fair, I didn't want him to be president, even though I didn't get up to go vote" whine, whine, whine. If a person disagree's with a president, or an opinion, or a law, you get up and do something about it, and causing all of this useless racially motivated scandal is doing nothing but making political conservatives look stupid. They are giving more credibility to the President then he deserves.

Just to let you know brethren that I will have to close this thread down if it turns into a slanging match. Botz

Kevlar Bunker Provides Safe House for Tornado Survivor By Julie Banderas Published June 01, 2011 FoxNews.com Diana Swenson came within just minutes of becoming a tornado casualty when a vicious twister swept into her hometown of Joplin, Mo. Instead, she survived to tell her story thanks to a shelter constructed of Kevlar, the same material used to make the life-saving bulletproof vests worn by police officers. <snip> Swenson said her shelter, made by the Wilmington, Del.-based DuPont Co., didn't budge, even as the twister blew a hole in the garage ceiling above. "When it hit, it was like chaos outside of the shelter. I mean you could hear everything, but my shelter did not flinch during that whole thing. You know I'm amazed." Read more

Are there racists in this nation? Yes. Are there people who see Obama through the eyes of race and treat him accordingly? Yes. Funny thing is that goes both ways. But are all criticisms and arguments against him racist based? NO! Just as not all support for Obama is racist based. So are there those that hound the birth certificate issue on account of race? I would venture yes. But does that explain everyone who hounds the b.c. issue? No. So is it right to even bring racism into this discussion? Only if you have evidence of racism being expressed.

Just a couple of points / questions. what your thoughts were on Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. To me it's clear that this earth is destroyed in some manner and a new heaven and earth are formed. When we are giving the measurements of the new Jerusalem it could be a cube or a pyramid. And honestly I don't know if we could call it a city by our standards today heh . 1400 miles that's roughly the distance from Atlanta, GA to Albuquerque, NM. That's huge, bigger than most countries. In eternity we are going to be rulers and governors. That could mean a whole range of things really and in the vastness of creation there are enumerable solar systems. I've always wondered if we might be put in charge of different ones Just wanted to add one more thing .. the height of the new Jerusalem will be higher than where our space shuttles now orbit. 1400 miles cubit, to be more accurate. Makes one wonder how large the new earth has to be in order to have a city that large without throwing it off its axis. Alan this was my second point. It appears as though God is going to miraculously (well, in violation with some physical properties we know today) uphold the new earth. Christians rarely question that and attempt to explain away properties of the new earth just because they violate what science says today is possible. So why do it in creation? We serve a supernatural God, who does miracles, creates from nothing, comes to earth in the form of a man, defeats death and sin. I have no issue concluding that He used supernatural means that violate physical properties in both the new earth AND creation.

Tusan Takk! And coo coo ca-choo to you too, Mrs Robinson!

One of you?... What are you referring to. No it is alive and well, I know, but I don't think for one moment that race has to do with any one on this board's opinions about Obama. To make it that it is our motivation, is simply wrong and unjust. I have experienced racism many times, and I must say, its been towards me, from minority's, who cry race! I have had a boss mistreat me because I was not a "Brother" I have been accused of racism, simply because I was of a lighter color then they were, and they went off on how "Evil" white people were for being racist. The only time race is an issue at all, is when someone of any race under the sun makes it such. You must make it one otherwise it is not an issue. I am actually 1/4 Native American, my father is on a reservation at this moment, I am a minority. I have ample room to complain about racism and to pull the race card if I so wish, but I refuse to say that anything that is done to me is because of race. I refuse to play that game. So tell me, are you accusing anyone here of being racist? If so just come out and say it, as thats the feeling I am getting from you. Also Sunflowerwife did make a blatant statement that we were all raciest as this whole idea was driven by racism and racism alone, which as you have already state is not the only reason. Also I did not decide to become a "Birther" lightly. I looked at what everyone has said, on both sides for years before making my decision. I have seen how this president has dealt with other issues. I have seen how he has tried to sweep embarrassing parts of his past under the rug, or explain it away, and in this he seems to be doing the same. I know all politicians do this, and this is one issue I feel he is dodging, and that is why I have even started to pay attention. I have also seen the video where Mrs, Obama said that Kenya was his home country, as well as aids is spread because of Homophobic people. Also the fact that this has gone on so long, has got my attention, since simply providing a birth certificate that was would end this. As for that statement I would agree but so is your statement of I have seen this statement applied in many versions to anyone that does not happen to agree with what others belive. Not only you have said that. This is an old argument when there is nothing better to say or objective facts to bring in as proof. It is hurtful and spiteful and mean, however. Well said!

Matt. 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, and cast out demons. Freely you received, so freely give. Until January 1, 1990 I liked to call myself a Frugal Man, what I was is stingy. Not that I didn

Should we behave in this way though. Especially as those who belong to the Lord. Should we get our hands dirty in this manner? No we should not, matter of fact the only reason I got involved in this thread, though I have been loosely keeping an eye on it, is that people pulled the racism card and accused all of us who belive that Obama was born elsewhere is a racist and that is over the line.

One of you?... What are you referring to. No it is alive and well, I know, but I don't think for one moment that race has to do with any one on this board's opinions about Obama. To make it that it is our motivation, is simply wrong and unjust. I have experienced racism many times, and I must say, its been towards me, from minority's, who cry race! I have had a boss mistreat me because I was not a "Brother" I have been accused of racism, simply because I was of a lighter color then they were, and they went off on how "Evil" white people were for being racist. The only time race is an issue at all, is when someone of any race under the sun makes it such. You must make it one otherwise it is not an issue. I am actually 1/4 Native American, my father is on a reservation at this moment, I am a minority. I have ample room to complain about racism and to pull the race card if I so wish, but I refuse to say that anything that is done to me is because of race. I refuse to play that game. So tell me, are you accusing anyone here of being racist? If so just come out and say it, as thats the feeling I am getting from you. Also Sunflowerwife did make a blatant statement that we were all raciest as this whole idea was driven by racism and racism alone, which as you have already state is not the only reason. Also I did not decide to become a "Birther" lightly. I looked at what everyone has said, on both sides for years before making my decision. I have seen how this president has dealt with other issues. I have seen how he has tried to sweep embarrassing parts of his past under the rug, or explain it away, and in this he seems to be doing the same. I know all politicians do this, and this is one issue I feel he is dodging, and that is why I have even started to pay attention. I have also seen the video where Mrs, Obama said that Kenya was his home country, as well as aids is spread because of Homophobic people. Also the fact that this has gone on so long, has got my attention, since simply providing a birth certificate that was would end this. As for that statement I would agree but so is your statement of I have seen this statement applied in many versions to anyone that does not happen to agree with what others belive. Not only you have said that. This is an old argument when there is nothing better to say or objective facts to bring in as proof. It is hurtful and spiteful and mean, however.

God bless you too! I think it's very important that we contend on this issue, if for no other reason than our rights will be taken away if we don't. I was reading an article about a man who's employment was terminated due to personal opinions he expressed in social media against same-sex marriage. He said nothing hostile or demeaning and again was expressing his own opinions on his own time. The reactions that people were posting to the issue were shocking. Many people think it's outright bigoted to simply hold the opinion that same sex marriage should not be legalized, and many people strongly supported firing people for disagreeing with a particular view. When I posted the response that if the law will protect your right to hold opinions on one side of an issue without persecution, it must protect the other way otherwise it's just as tyrannical and intolerant, many people vehemently opposed this sentiment. One person even mentioned that bigots (those who disagree with extending the traditional definition of marriage to include same sex relationships) need to be vilified and persecuted in the name of tolerance (of all things). Intolerance in the name of tolerance seems perfectly complimentary and consistent to some, it would seem, and unfortunately those some seem to have loud and powerful voices which are stamping out human liberties of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, in the very name of the human liberties they are attempting to destroy. My main fear is not that they will succeed not in expanding the definition of marriage, but that if we don't voice our disagreements, that they will succeed in removing our right to disagree, because while I believe that people should be ruled much by their own conscience, it seems that less liberty is afforded by those who pay it the most lip service these days.

Even if I admit not to know much about scripture, I can safely say that heaven will be different from the garden. Adam and Eve were supposed to have children in the garden, even if they had not eaten that fruit. It is also logical to assume that this will not be the case in heaven. If you were still able to have children in heaven, you must guarantee that an equal number of men and women, willing to have children, are saved, to avoid extra-marital unions. Together with other theological problems. viole, that's not a theological problem. I do agree with something you're saying here though, namely that people are different. Read the Bible cover to cover and what you have is a story that has a definitive Beginning, progression, and Conclusion that actually encompasses everything temporal. The big difference between Creation and the re-creation of the new heavens and new earth is that people have changed as a result of the fall and as a result of God’s invitations for His fallen creation to willingly come back and receive His reparation for the damage we elected against ourselves and His creation. What amazes me is that in the beginning, God created people in innocence, we wanted for nothing and had a wonderful relationship with God that was conditional on choosing to remain in obedience – we disobeyed and elected death instead, but God is such a loving and compassionate Father that instead of allowing us to just take the consequences of our actions, He assumed the consequences on Himself on the cross to restore us from the curse of sin and death, and will ultimately come back and renew all things except those elected by faith in grace, since we're not simply renewed but also rewarded. And Candice, this is what I think is the major difference between pre fall and post revelation: that we no longer are in a contingent position, meaning that we chose God when we saw through a glass yet darkly. Adam and Eve fell even though they walked with God without the blinders of sin and the tares of the fallen world, whereas we stand with Jesus and choose to follow God, even while we see through a glass darkly and grapple with this present darkness. So, even though sin entered the world through man, and all share in that responsibility because all have sinned, those who persevere God washes clean with His Son’s blood and raises them up higher than at the beginning in the garden. So, God’s kindness is such that even though we sinned, God seems to have used sin to occasion greater blessing for those who would accept it, which we’ll see in New Jerusalem “Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory” (Romans 8:17). As for the question of whether or not it should be taken literally, the Bible is very clear about when it employs metaphors, including in Revelation. Just look at Chapter 1, it tells you exactly what the stars and lampstands signify. The reader isn’t left to wonder what they might mean, the text makes it totally plain. The cases where it isn’t spelled out directly in Revelation, it’s spelled out elsewhere, such as the woman clothed in the sun, moon and the stars, just like in Joseph’s dream in Genesis, the horns signifying kings, the treatment of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel, etc. Familiarity with the OT texts spells out the meaning of most of the metaphoric references in Revelation unmistakably, and provides the literal context for much of the passages as well. Only if Revelation is taken on its own, and not in the appropriate context of the fulfillment of many other prophetic writings, does it appear to be veiled in ambiguous symbolism that may or may not be literal. The literal events in Revelation are spelled out repeatedly throughout the OT, and death is going to be done away with outright.

Do you believe these words will sway anyone's opinions? Do you believe they will silence critics? Would it not be more productive if you could find evidence that the "layering" argument is invalid? You can download the Adobe Acrobat user manual and find it for yourself neb. If you scan a file directly into a pdf file with OCR turned on, you can get many layers by the scan process. It's no proof that the file is either fake or real one way or the other. I've seen reproductions of a set of twins birth certificates that were about the same time with that name in the Hospital entry.... likewise there is no proof that it wasn't messed with either.... only way to know would be to go look at the origional, for i don't see anyone that any of us should be trusting

If you use a scanner that can scan directly into a pdf file and have the OCR tool on, the scanner will scan the document and depending on the quality of the origional, it wil put the image in different layers depending on what the OCR software sees. This may or may not be a fake, but the different layers do not necessarily mean it's been altered. You would have to see the original document to know.