Murse32

I think that this is one of those "impossible questions". I believe that when man fell in the beginning, we became something we were never meant to be. Along with this falling came sickness and death. Through sickness our bodies have devolped altered genes. When our genes alter, we see problems with genetics. My belief only. Now, Is the transgendered and intersexed individual a product of our own mishap? or were they made that way for a purpose to glorify God? One may never know. To think logically though, we would have to assume that if it were genetic, we would see more individuals who are "different" from our perspective it seems. Though we do know that the body does in fact fix itself when a problem arises. On a day to day basis, DNA is being recreated...many times the code is wrong but immediately fixes itself. This happens more times than we know. But look at me go, I'm circling in my own reason. I guess it's just best to say...I have no idea!!! LOL

Oh! Well why didn't you say so in the first place? Though I have "heard" one in twenty people have an extra rib...this is just hearsay. But ahhh, yes! CRS (Cervical Rib Syndrome), have read about that. Usually though, it is bilateral, so If I am not mistaken, this would be an extra "pair" opposed to an extra "rib". But I am by no means an expert and have never rub across this in my practice. Wait, why are we talking about this?!?! LOL Sorry, people start talking medically and I have to jump in.

I was supporting your statement...sorry for the confusion. Gotcha LOL, I thought I was getting spanked for something I didn't do! But you are correct as far as your last post goes. I believe many have become egotistical. Jewish persecution is just as alive today as was before. We need to know that God still loves them and considers them chosen...after all...They are His firstborn.

Hmmm, not quite understanding where your thinking is coming from. Even with the Hindus, they believe in a greater being, a creator/destroyer, if you will...Brahma/Siva. Muslims believe in Allah, Jews believe in YHWH, Christians believe in Father/Christ/Holy Spirit (all one in three deities), even the pagans believed (believe) in a higher being. Though some may be guilty of worshipping false gods, one thing we can not deny them of, is being so egotistical, they think they just happened by chance and are the greatest being. They look at existance as coming from something greater than we are. Furthermore, are we (humans) so great to begin with? Look at the animal kingdom. When a animal kills, it's for the life cycle to continue in carnivores. They may kill, but it's from necessity. Why do we kill than? I read about people being murdered for their shoes. Are we so great? We live a lifestyle, here in this country, of conveinance. To make things even more conveinant, we have because lazy and destructive to our nature. If this is truly the nature of our being, It furthers my faith even moreso that we are a "newer creation" and not the likes of some evolutionary form that has progressed for millions of years. If that was the case, we being as we are, would have destroyed ourselves long ago, if it had not been for God watching over us and balancing...for making rules in which our lives are more beneficial if we abide.

Hmmm, well, considering the world consists of Christians (protestant), muslims, catholics, Jehovahs witnesses, etc...that all believe in a creator. I wouldn't exactly say we are a minority. And of course I'll forgive ya!!!!

Taken from CERN's website: The Large Hadron Collider. "Two beams of subatomic particles called 'hadrons'

First of all great. I didn't know that the Bridegroom take his bride back to his fathers and stays for seven days. Thanks. So your telling me that in Matthew 24:29 where it says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" is not proof enough that the catching away will not happen until after a period of tribulation? Yeah, basically that's what I'm saying. If Matthew just said what you did, than it might make more sense, but if you take it as a whole and think of the elect to be the original that God chose, than your post-trib doctrine doesn't make sense anymore. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But I do know that Revelation and Daniel are set up around the focal point being Israel. I do know that God seals 144,000, for what reason? If the church is here, why is He sealing them? Is the seal the Holy Spirit...why is there only 144,000? Why aren't they being saved like us? Where is the church? Why aren't we fighting? If the church is here, shouldn't we point out the abomination of desolation? wouldn't that convert many? So many questions...so little answers. I agree that we are not to know the day or the hour but I got a better event to look for then the battle of Armaggedon. It is a new Jewish temple built on the temple mount. In 2 Thess it say that the antichrist will sit in the temple of God showing himself as if he was God. Which means that he will be sitting in the holy of holies the same as God did in the old testament and for him to be able to do that there must be a temple on the temple mount.

You do not have to agree or disagree with the following, This was taken from something I had in my "favorites" from doubter.net. Not that everything on this site is a good thing, but I like this one (even though I may not agree with EVERYTHING). What does it mean to say we're in God's image? Does it mean even now God is a flesh and blood being like ourselves complete with race, color, sexual gender, and the like? To answer that question, we should first define what we mean by God: Most would agree by "God" we mean nothing less than the all-creative, all-present power behind the entire universe. St. Anselm once stated that if you could think of a term greater than the one you just used, you have not truly spoken about God. Think about it... Moreover many passages in the Bible consider it idolatry to portray any image of God. For, especially in Judaism (also Islam), God is too sacred and beyond description to be portrayed in images. Such idolatry was especially emphasized by Isaiah, who asks: When God sees within the circle of the earth nations as fine dust - to whom we can liken God? (Isaiah 40: 15-18) For truly God will share no glory with images. (Isaiah 42:8) So verily any images of God created by man are falsehoods. (Isaiah 44:17-20) Less known to Christians, The New Testament comdemns such idolatry as well. Surprisingly, even after the Christ appeared John:1:8 stated human eyes have never seen God! 1 John 5:21 agains warns us to guard ourselves against idols... This leaves us with two puzzles: What about Genesis' passages about God creating us in his own image? Also, how can Christians reconcile Jesus as part of God coming into the world in human form? Let's start with Genesis. IN GENESIS - WHAT WAS GOD'S IMAGE? Biblical scholars find two stories of Adam & Eve's creation in Genesis. So Let's take them one at a time: Genesis 1; 26-28 states: "Let us make man( or ha-adam, from the earth) in our image, according to our likeness... So God created man in his own image, male and female he created them..." Two factors stand out here: (1) Here God created male and female together, giving neither first choice as far as it was said. (2) God also used the term "us" and "in our image" in those passages. No sole image of a male God is implied here. Could this plural God imply the Trinity? Perhaps it could to Christians. However, the passage was written by Hebrews who believe in no Trinity. However, unbeknown to many, underlying the Hebrew traditions a feminine side of God can be revealed. For instance, the Holy Spirit in Hebrew ("Ruah") is actually a feminime term. Also, in the Kabbalah and other Jewish literature God has a feminine counterpart,"Shekhina".Wisdom or "Sophia" was also thought God's counterpart in the beginning. (See "The Hebrew Goddess" in this site.) Overall, the Hebrew tradition unwittingly implies God cannot be viewed as just male alone. Realizing God's feminine side now makes perfect sense of God's dual image in Genesis 1: 26-28. Then what of the second creation story in Genesis 2? Genesis 2: 21-22 has Eve created from Adam's rib. How can that not contradict the earlier depiction of Adam & Eve created together in the image of a dual-faced God? The answer lies in the very next verses (23-25) giving the second version its meaning, and a moral lesson that renders the rib story more of a parable: "Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and be cleaved to his wife, and they shall be of one flesh." In other words, the verses signify man and wife should be joined to one another and be of the same flesh even more so than thier former kin. So apparently God's image encompasses at least both male and female (as well as much more). As it appears: just as God's facets are united as one, the male and female of our species are to also cleave together (in marriage) as one as well. So, let us never commit the idolatry of putting human limits on God.... THE CHRIST IN GOD'S IMAGE? Now, what of Jesus coming into the world in the form of a male human being? Does that imply the universal Godhead of all the heavens is even today a flesh and blood super-human man floating about up there? And how does Christ's appearance on earth reconcile with John 1:18 stating no human eyes have ever seen God ? For one thing, if God is all- powerful and all-creative, then incarnation in any earthly image would be possible. The fact is that if he were a woman at that time, the Jews and most Pagans would not take heed of Jesus teachings. Only a man's teachings would be taken seriously at that place in time. But beyond Jesus' death on this invisible dot in the universe , what form could the second person of a cosmic Trinity take now? First of all, we can view the Trinity as "persons" at least as it works in and through persons themselves. But from a cosmic perspective - wherein even our entire galaxy is but a speck - the "Father" could be nothing less than the incredible Law-giver of the entire universe, and God's Spirit its creative Power. From that universal perspedtive the Christ then must represent nothing less than the resurrection and new creation permeating all of infinity and eternity. And this answers the question of why John claimed no one has ever saw God, even after Jesus arrived here: For John (1:1-14) also spoke of the Christ as the Logos before he became flesh - who was with God and was God, and through whom all things came to be. He was the light the darkness could not overcome. And in Clolssians 1:15-17 Paul states: "In the Christ God created all things in the heavens and on the earth,everything visible and invisible.Before anything created Christ was." Again, we should not put limits on what the Christ represents in the Godhead. (Conclusion below) CONCLUSION: From the universal perspective above, we must look beyond the immediate creation and salvation of humanity. There we would find the totality of the Godhead must transcend far beyond human traits like flesh, race, or sexulal gender alone. Therefore, we can be created in no physical image of God. We are instead created in God's Spiritual image. Now it's time to ask: What can God's Spiritual image mean in our lives? Being created in God's Spiritual image means we are created in an image able to transcend fleshly limitations... an image able to become reborn into something more than naked apes on this earth,,, an image able to embrace more than just our finite selves alone... an image bestowing moral responsibility to us all.... Perhaps few can live up to this divine, spiritual image. However, all cultures have their teachings and their covenants. And for Christains a savior appeared once in human form to create the human example and the way... Let's take our closing Thoughts from Glations 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither slave nor free; there is neither male nor female: For you are all one in God..."

Thank you Maranathanna, but I think you have me confused with another. I do not believe God has forgotten His promise. In fact, I've spent many posts, on this and on others refuting the false beliefs of the "replacement theory" and defending God's promise to the Jews.

This is a dangerously ignorant post. The LHC is about studying the foundations of our universe. It has nothing to do with abiogenesis. Physicists are not biologists. The origin of life already has a variety of interesting theories resulting from biological experiments. And intelligent design, while interesting, has nothing to do with science. Thank you for your opinion...but google CERN. Go to their websight and look it up. I even searched the topic of antimatter from their site. I did this to see if the book had just made stuff up or really documented what was going on with that company. The LHC is for the purpose of colliding matter. This is to see if the hypothesis of the big bang can be established.

The question was actually about the "image" of God. Yes, very true, man is the head of the woman in being they are to lead in pure love. We, as men, should love them and care for them just as Christ cared for His church. This does show a completeness though. If we are to treat women as Christ treated us...we see love, sacrifice, and forgiveness. We also know that without Christ, the church does not exist...it is incomplete. I agree on the further image topic, but if you think about it...that is where our emotions come from. Our physical bodies are nothing more than a shell. It's our spirit that loves, angers, etc. This is how we can be made new in Christ. He gives us His spirit that teaches us and convicts us.

Oh MorningGlory, I couldn't agree with you more. The purpose you ask? That's the funny thing that I was trying to point out...The irony is that they are trying to create life to prove that life can be created without the need of intelligent design.

We all know the beginning of Genesis. God declares Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. But if you think about it, What is God's image? Do we look like God? God is spirit. To be made in God's image, I believe, is Him making us as He is. Adam before the fall, was righteous, he named all things and had dominion. He had feelings. We too have feelings. We love, get angry, become saddened, frustrated, etc. God is the same in this fashion. He loves, gets angry (righteous anger), jealous, saddened, etc. I believe when God designed us, He designed us with His emotions. Because He loves so deeply, He gave us these same traits in order for us to love Him back. Yes, He could have created robots, but that's not how He is...He wants us to come to Him because we Love Him...not because we are forced to. Moving forward though, Woman are designed in the same way. They have the same emotions. I feel that woman have stronger passions than us men do. Look at a mother and her child. A father is quick to punish, where many times a mother is quick to bring the child in and forgive. In the bible we know that we are to marry one man/woman...the bible goes further to elaborate that when the two come together they are no longer two, but one. I feel this is because when a man and woman marry, they complete each other. They are made whole. The weaknesses that men possess, woman fill that gap, and vise versa. Likewise, When we come together with God, we are made whole. A completeness can also be seen in the trinity. A father, son, and Holy Spirit. Three which are one. Likewise, when a man, woman are together and focus on God...we see three made as one...a completeness...a whole. This is why when men and women try to pursue life without God, there is always that void...they are not complete. Moving further, sorry to be so winded, But I feel it's also important to note how God took Eve from the side of Adam. God created Adam from the dust. He could have likewise created Eve in the same way. He did this for a purpose. Taking a rib from Adam was to point out that without a woman, man is incomplete. Likewise, being that a woman comes from the side, shows a womans place with a man...not from the foot, because that would mean a man rules OVER a woman, and if from the top portion, a woman rules over a man. He was showing in a very humble and beautiful design, that we are equal. side by side, but never above God. With love in Christ

I see the word "logic" being used as if it were someone's last name. If people were so adimant about logic being made triumphant, than people would have to be honest with themselves. Logic triumphs when honesty is in place, not using one's predetermined thought process to prove logic and or make logic. If that doesn't make sense to some, let me give an example. Anyone ever read the book "Angels and Demons" by Dan Brown? Well, though it's a fun fictional book to read, Brown did a fantastic job in his search for using real life in the basis of his book. In his book we see the company CERN as the foundation for the story. What many might not know, is that CERN is a real company. In the book brown paints a picture of the Physicists trying to create "antimatter". I challenge all of you to investigate CERN and watch carefully what they are doing...They are trying to do just this. Their reason? To prove that creation can happen from nothing. Where logic escapes these individuals is that in order to do this, they are spending billions of dollars trying to create this "something from nothing". They are using machinery known as "LHC" Large Hadron Collider. This machine enables these physicists to study the smallest particles. To give one a visual, CERN explains that the Atom, which used to be thought to be the smallest matter, is nothing now. If we were to take an atom and make it a model the size the of earth, the protons and neutrons that make up the nucleus would be about the size of an olympic stadium. Take that same earth size atom, and we find what scientist call "quarks" which would be the size of a tennis ball. The logic though, still escapes them. Trying so desperately to prove that life could have happened by chance...that they are becoming lost in their own maze. They find more and more. These are the highest, most thought of brains in our world...These are the most intelligent individuals man has to offer...and whats their goal? to prove life exists and it exists NOT because of intelligent design...Anyone see the irony in that? These same brilliant men, still have issues creating from nothing.

Why? Because this is the same question which brought about the "replacement theory". To say God has forgotten about His promise to Israel is simply mind boggling. To proclaim that the New Testament now speaks in nothing but a symbolic language is also a discrepancy in good theology. God did not forget about His chosen people (His Elect). If He decided to replace His promise to the "church" our scriptures would not make sense. The book of Revelation is surrounded around the issues of what's going to happen in Israel. How the two witnesses preach there, the new temple is built there, the battle of Armageddon is going to be brought together there. As stated before, we also see that 144,000 are sealed, all of them being Jewish. It would be difficult to see how God would keep His promise to the house of Israel. But, because He seals and keeps 12,000 from each tribe, this shows the promise is in full swing. Keep in mind as well, any good historian will tell you that no one in history has ever lost their land for such a great amount of time and gotten it back. In 1946, we see the Jews returning home. What's even more fantastic, is that for centuries, the jews spoke whatever language was used in the area that they lived. Hebrew had become dead. This to, is a phenomenon in itself...no culture has ever lost it's language and returned to it. Yet, many are studying and speaking hebrew to this day. It was God's promise that He would restore their land to them and also the pure language. God has not forgotten about His promise...nor will he ever replace those that He loved...We, as the church, should not be so egotistic. We are only adobted in to His family by His wonderful grace and lovingkindness. He put His promise on hold so that we too could be saved and be with Him...but, the rest of the promise for Israel is yet to come.

Not so Murse. One scripture only tells us that there will not ever be a 'pre trib" rapture and Jesus is very clear on that point. Matthew 24:29 "Immediatly after thr tribulation of those days". These words and the words 'and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds (glory) of heaven in verse 30 tell us that beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus will be appearing in the clouds and sending His angels to pick us up "after the tribulation of those days" and there is nothing gray about these words spoken by Jesus and recorded by Matthew. What's gray is your interpretation. You say Jesus will be picking "us" up. The bible declares He will gather His elect. The elect, have always been the Jews. These are the same Jews that are sealed Mid way through Revelation. Another thing you might want to consider is that there is no scriptural proof what so ever written any where in the bible about the charactoristics of the pre-tribImmediately racharacteristicspture concept. There is no where in the bible where you can find the bible telling us that there will be "seven years of tribulation". There is no proof on a post-trib either. Funny thing is, is we are not to know the day nor the hour...the timing will be unknown. Yet through proper study, we could easily see the timing of a second coming...just wait for the war in the valley of Meggido. Another consideration is that if you follow the time line of daniels 70-week prophecy, 69 have been fulfilled. according to historians, the 69 weeks representing 483 years, falls in place perfectly to the coming of the Messiah. To the day. That would mean the last "week" would be 7 years. and according to revelation, we see the two witnesses who torment the anti-christ for 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) in the midst of the trib (half way) He gets wounded and rises again. This means there will be yet another 3 1/2 years. There is no biblical proof that the "restrainer is the church" and the only entity that actually restrains and fights for the people of God in the spirit realm is Micheal the arch angel. You are right, there is no proof. I do believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit though...not the church. Shoot, we haven't been able to hold back satan for 2,000 years now. Jesus is the light of this world, the Holy Spirit gives Him that testimony...darkness can't mingle with the light. Once the light is taken away, darkness has free reign. The pre-trib doctrine also teaches that there will be a post resurrection evangelistic movement done by the 144,000 that will cover the whole globe after the seven years of tribulation begins and it will be those newly born Christians who will be suffering the great tribulation/persecution who will be dieing by the millions in the name of Christ. But guess what? The bible never says anything about any movement to re-evangelise the world after the ressurrection nor does the bible say that the 144,000 chosen Isrealite are going to be going anywhere but it does say that they are going to be in Isreal. I've actually never heard of this. The 144,000 are the Jews that God promised to save in order for the house of Israel (Jacob) to be saved and inherit the land of Israel forever. this is God keeping His promise to the Jews. But, like in the old testament, the Jews were punished for their non-belief. They worshipped other gods and would not keep the one True Gods commandments...so He allowed them to be taken captive and punished. This last week is His last call for the Jews to repent and come back to Him. When the antichrist sits in the future temple...They will know it's an abomination. They will refer back to daniel and know they have followed a false messiah. The botton line is that the pre-tribevangelizeresurrectionIsraeliteIsraelbottom doctrine is not scripturally provable and if these things are not written in the bible they don't exist. With your logic than, you should forget about your post-trib theory as well...it falls under the same basis. As for the bride of Christ. He will be doing with His bride exactly as Jewish custom dictates. He will come to the brides house along with His enterage and pick her up. Next He will take her to His Fathers house and presantentouragepresent her to Him as an except-able gift and from there to the wedding supper. I probably skipped something but what the hay. Jewish custom dictates once the groom comes to get his bride, He takes her back to His fathers house for "7 days"

Yesult, Yes, I have heard this weak explanation of the "comma" theory myself. Despite the comma arguement, it doesn't even matter. Truly I tell you, Today you will be with me in paradise = Thief going to paradise. Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise = Thief going to paradise. Keep in mind as well, Paradise is NOT Heaven. Paradise is what the OT people called "Abrahams Bousam". It was believed to be a waiting place until the judgement. When Jesus died on the cross, He judged and defeated death. By defeating death, we can no longer be seperated from the Father in life or in death. Yes, we can not see Him or stand with Him, but He now hears us. When we die, we go to Him now. The people who had made it to Abrahams bousam were people with the heart of God. These people knew Gods word and the coming of the Messiah. they believed on the Messiah to come and followed Gods commands. When Jesus' died, He freed these captives. You mistake Jesus' words to Mary Magdalene. He did not tell her to not touch Him because He had not ascended to the Father because He could not be touched...If this was the case, why did He let Thomas stick his fingers in His wounds. The actual context of this verse is that Mary thought He had already returned (2nd Coming). Jesus was simply telling her to not grasp on to Him as if He were to stay. Basically telling her to not get to excited, He wasn't back for very long...He hadn't gone to the Father yet. Interested also how you take 1 Corinthians to mean that we can baptize in the name of the dead because Paul didn't say we couldn't. Paul's words are very clear if taken in context. These people obviously didn't believe in a resurrection, yet were baptizing anyway. Paul is basically calling out their folly. Also, we know our God is a God of the living, not of the Dead. Therefore, why would we ever pray for the dead, baptize in the name of the dead, or worship any dead. We are not to. And once more, you have mistaken the meaning of scriptures by twisting Jesus' words around. Read what you posted carefully. Jesus answered, Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God, without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be astonished that I said to you 'You must be born from above being born of water and spirit. than He reitterates. Whats born of the flesh and what's born of the spirit. Water = flesh Spirit = spirit. When we are physically born, we are encompassed in a water filled sack. Well, we must first be born...than re-born by means of being born of the spirit. This enables us to enter the kingdom of Heaven. He was doing this to show the difference in His meaning to Nicodemus. Nicodemus thought that Jesus meant a literal re-birth...this obviously didn't make sense to him at the time. back to the baptizing of the dead though. Once you die, you are dead. If you go to Heaven or Hell, that's it...the end. If you are a lost being in Hell and someone gets baptized for you...this doesn't yank you out of Hell. If this was the case, we would all be doing this to empty the pits of Hell until it was rendered useless. Absolutely not, Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it.

What tickles me is how so many are so sure there is NOT a pre-trib rapture that you are willing to call it "heresy". Though you don't keep in mind all of the scriptures while quoting this. IF you would have kept in mind all the scriptures, it would bring a thought as if a post-trib summoning was in fact the ONLY way...there would be nobody left on earth. Let's think. We all go through the tribulation...at the end, Jesus comes like a "thief in the night", we are all called up, He destroys the rest of the world, comes back...starts His reign. Ok, Well, In Revelation 20 we see that Satan is bound for 1000 years. At the end of that, he is released for a short time to make war and deceive....Well, who is he deceiving?!?!? Everyone on earth according to post-trib rapture people have already been made incorruptible. So, satan is wandering around asking people that could NEVER be corrupted to join his side??? doesn't make sense. In Ezekiel, we see the destruction of Gog. This event has not happened yet. This is the prophetic event that will happen at the end of the millenium. Who's bones and weapons are being burned? We are all incorruptible once again. Are we to believe that we will die again at the hand of satan? In matthew 24, we see Jesus warning those that are in Judea to flee. What, the rest of the world, even us here in America shouldn't worry?!?!? Not going to affect us? Funny, the bible calls the tribulation a testing of the world And, why is it we see that there will be no more death in Revelation 21? We should see this right after the tribulation considering everyone of Jesus believers are taken up and the rest are judged. Which brings me to another point, why does He wait 1000 years to Judge all? seems He could do it right there since everyone really has been judged. Furthermore, I think it's important to consider why Jesus calls His church His "bride". In knowing the history of Jewish customs, would shed much light on the ceremony that takes place. With all that said, taking scripture as a WHOLE, shows that there can be a pre-trib rapture of the church. The tribulation is a testing period for the world, but mostly the Jews. This is their last week in Daniels 70 week prophecy. It was put on hold for the purpose of the Church. Once this last week starts, the church age is over. Many focus so hard that a "rapture" will be simply a taking away of all believers alive at that time. Like we will just vanish into thin air. Now, this is a possibility, but has the thought ever occured that we may just be taken...to the people left it will look like a mass death. Our bodies still here, spirit and soul with Him. waiting for the time that our bodies will be resurrected? It's just a thought. Let's play make believe. All christians alive appear to have died. A leader arises with an answer. Maybe this answer will be a comforting one to the people. maybe it will be more along the lines that we have worshipped a false god and the real god has punished us....this would make a perfect paved way for the people living to worship something false. Who knows. All I do know, is that it is very gray on how it will happen. I think people should be cautious to call something unknown which is based on the bible as a "damnable heresy". Remember Jesus' words. Revelation 3:10 - Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. We know that He isn't talking about day to day trials and tribulations...we are to rejoice in those times. This time to come, is not a time for rejoicing.

This verse has always been the subject of controversy. Some people believe that one must be baptised to be saved, and in the case where a believer dies without being baptised, they believe another person can be baptised for them. I am a bit skeptical about that. I think it is saying that a person is baptised because it is a symbol of the fact they were dead in their tresspasses and sins ,not literally dead and in the grave. They do so as a sign of the death of the old man and the birth of the new. We also believe that those who are in Christ will one day experience a physical resurrection and live forever. That is just my opinion, but I haven't heard a better explaination so far. Thank you Butero I will have to look at that. Some hold the "water baptism" to such a high standard that can not be warranted. Water does not save, Blood does. If the water in itself could save, we would be part of a "works based salvation" meaning you were saved by your works of baptism. We know, that we are not!! We are saved by grace alone due to our faith...a faith that God has given us all in small doses, how we use it, is on us. For those that hold the water baptism to salvation standards, my one question is this: If we MUST be water baptized to be saved, why do we see this...? Luke 23:42 Then he said to Jesus,

This is the most disgusting, disturbing, heretical form of art I have ever seen!! O'bama riding in on a donkey?? O how satan loves to mimic the things of God. He can't create so he copies.

I have to agree with Kross on this one. When Jesus started His ministry here on earth and was teaching, it was seen that He would declare people an "error" because they did not know the scripture. It was the prophecies of the OT that pointed to His coming. Maybe I'm looking to far into it, but it seems to me that He expected people to look forward in the scriptures with wisdom. We should study to know what to expect, to know the time is near, to show people how the bible was able to predict thousands of years ago, what is happening today. Knowing the scriptures from an eschatological aspect enables us to be strong and on guard. Now, I don't believe the same things as all, but for the sake of arguement I will stand on some individuals side...Let's say we see the "Great Tribulation". I think too many Christians in their mentality just play this off to be another day in the life of. They believe they will rush into the Tribulation with the "armour of God" on and thats it...If they die, they die. What I don't believe most people understand is that if we do see that day, It will be the most horrifying events imaginable. Everything you know and are used to will be gone. House...gone. Church...gone. Food...gone. That is, if we aren't part of that statistic that isn't destroyed by natural events. plaques, famine, death, torture. We say now in the comfort of our homes and churches that we will stand by God no matter what. Many will as well. But have you ever thought of how you will feel to see your family ripped out of your home and visciously killed in front of your eyes? The sounds of screams, weeping, and cries to God will not be uncommon. The time to come will be greater in evil than any other time known to man. I believe we should know what's expected...and warn those around us...we can already see the gears in motion. Though we may have never seen this anti-christ, never seen this mark, or his evil prophet...we can definetly see times changing getting everything aligned...like a form of chess. strategically place your pieces until it's time to attack.

I can't tell you exactly what pagan group was practicing this at this time. We know that Corinth was near Rome though. Rome was home to a plethora of pagan beliefs. I should have added the mormons in my last post. I am well aware of their practice. They believe that living members of a family can be baptized in a dead relatives name in order to give them hope of an afterlife. It's a thought that you can be baptized in their place if they never were. We see this false doctrine alive and well in the Catholic dogmas as well. Only with the catholics, it's paying money in order for someone to be released from purgatory. There are so many scriptures that prove this belief, either way, to be false. You are wise, therefore I don't feel it beneficial to post them. If you would like, I would for you though. The mormons are basically guilty of the same misuse of scripture as many other "cultic" groups. They believe Joseph Smith received this revelation from a angel and was given a better revelation of the meaning of this scripture. We know by our bible that If any other come preaching a different gospel...they are considered to be false though. Keep in mind, the LDS provide bibles...this is to lure people in to their churches. Once in, they have other doctrines that they use from Joseph Smith that claims more enlightenment to the scriptures...these teachings have so many contradictions though, the beliefs are unfathomable to any logical mind. Take care my brother, hope I answered your question. With love in Christ.

Well, I was never brought up a christian. I was forced to go to Catholic school in my early days though. I will be completely honest, the catholic dogmas pushed me further into non-believer than draw me closer to God. My mom today still stands a devout catholic, whereas, I am a protestant. I have tried to educate her on the history of the catholic church, the symbology, and meanings behind their doctrine (other than the bible)...she won't hear it. So I continue loving her anyways. I would never say I was an atheist. But lets be honest, atheists biggest thing is that christians hold to a "blind, unprovable faith". Now, though you may be a non-believer, that does not discredit your educational status...Im sure you are quite smart. So lets think logically. Your theory, whatever it may be....requires "faith"...and unprovable, blind faith. You say man evolved...I say and many scientists NOW say, the early skeleton was put together from pieces of different species...one being an actual ape. You have dinosaur fossils that "prove" dinosaurs lived on earth millions of years ago....I give you a verse from the book of "Job" Job 40:15

Gastritis is a plethora of illness covered under peptic ulcer diesease, the underlying condition being inflamation of the stomach lining due to an overproduction of acid. Much of the problem is caused by an organism called H.Pylori for which the Breath test and and antibody test of the blood would detect the presence of the organism, after which a course of antibiotics can clear up the problem. This is absolutely right. H. Pylori is the a huge cause for peptic ulcers. Though, many medications can be given to help alleviate the symptoms of PUD. Neb, I would consult your doctor to see if "Protonix" could be right for you. Protonix is a PPI (Proton Pump Inhibitor). PPI's affect the pumps that "pump" the HCL into your stomache. Often, people with this problem have too much HCL and not enough neutralizer. The PPI, limits the amount of acid therefore upping the ratio of base to acid.

Hey Paul, I hope your mom is doing well my brother. The important part of deciphering this verse correctly is basically reading the entire chapter. In Chapter 15, we see Paul addressing the Corinthian church on their misguided beliefs that there isn't going to be a resurrection of the believers. Paul goes on to say that like Jesus, who died and was resurrected, we too will also be resurrected in the same manner (glorified and new). The verse that you quoted above is one of many where paul uses "hypothetical" and/or "figures of speech" in his teachings. What paul is trying to show the corinthian church, who had let their old pagan habits creep into the Christian church (as we see from the entire book of 1 Corinthians), that if they disregard the resurrection of Jesus...Our faith is pointless. He goes on to show that there MUST be a resurrection or the purpose for our baptism is useless. Now, the water doesn't save. It's symbolic as I'm sure you know this. It is important to know the meaning behind it as well. Burial, death, new life (resurrection). We can see Paul painting the picture clearly if we start with verses 12-19: 12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up