PeterH

That's a lot of questions tied to one subject eh. Starting off there are several scriptures that say the "iniquity" of the father will be visited even up to the forth generations of his family. Exodus 20:5 Exodus 34:6-7 Deuteronomy 5:9 There is also scripture that states that fathers are not to be punished for their sons sins and vise-versa. Deuteronomy 24:16 Ezekiel 18:20 The first set of scriptures I believe are talking about the judgement of God and the second are the laws of men (what men should abide by given from God). So is the judgement of God passed down? Yes. Sin is passed down from the father to their sons and daughters hence we are all guilty and only Jesus could ever be found not guilty of sin. Why the father and not the mother? Well I believe it's biblical that the fathers of a house are the spiritual leaders of that house. And as such if they sin then the lead their house into sin. Mother's are not the leaders, if there is a father present, no matter how much they strive to be because of the curse God placed on Eve found in Genesis 3:16 that she passed down. As for an exact sin. I don't really think that matters or applies because the wages of any sin is death. There is no punishment for a sin that's worse than another. The good news (Gospel) is that the son of God came to us, Jesus, and made a way for us to be born again. Born again so now our father is the heavenly Father, God, so our old selves are dead and we live a new life as sons and daughters of God our Father. And since our Father now has no sin in him we are found blameless. That is the redeeming work Jesus did for us. That is why Jesus is worthy of all honor, praise and worship.

Jesus is coming Soon! Our redemption is near! Be ready! 1 Thessalonians 4:9-18 9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 for indeed you do practice it toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more, 11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, 12 so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need. 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

"by Jack Kelley" is also in the title of the thread, so credit was given. ah didn't see that.

just to give credit where credit is due that article was written by Jack Kelley – www.gracethrufaith.com

Nero was not thrown into the fiery lake alive with his false prophet by the King of Kings. Nero might have been a type of Antichrist but he wasn't the Man of lawlessness aka Son of perdition aka The Beast aka The Antichrist. Revelation 19:19-21 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. These are future events. As to trying to figure out who he is, that's rubbish. 1 Thessalonians 2:6-10 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. This clearly states that he won't be revealed until it is time. And there will be very little doubt of who he is to the saints, if we're even here. They are PAST events. Are you sure Nero is not in the Lake of Fire? I wasn't there. I can only read what John wrote and go from there. John says the Beast is in the Lake of Fire. Since Nero personifies Rome (as Christ personifies the Church, as Washington and Lincoln personify America for examples) remember as well, the Beast is both a NATION (Rome) and its 6th emperor (Nero), and when John writes he isn't always clear which he refers to. One has to read and determine which John is speaking of. The false prophet is his religious agent (apostate Judaism, that part of Israel which rejected Jesus as Messiah, primarily the leadership). Apostate Judaism is for all intents and purposes to the cause of salvation, in the lake of fire, as is Rome for being the agent of Satan. That's pretty far fetched especially when you continue reading Revelation 20. If what you say is correct then we're past the 1000 year reign of Jesus. Following that reasoning Satan has already been bound then released and judged. As well the great white throne judgement has already taken place. How do you account for that? If what you say is true then we are living in a time 1000 years after the events in Revelation 20 have taken place.

Nero was not thrown into the fiery lake alive with his false prophet by the King of Kings. Nero might have been a type of Antichrist but he wasn't the Man of lawlessness aka Son of perdition aka The Beast aka The Antichrist. Revelation 19:19-21 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. These are future events. As to trying to figure out who he is, that's rubbish. 1 Thessalonians 2:6-10 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. This clearly states that he won't be revealed until it is time. And there will be very little doubt of who he is to the saints, if we're even here.

You can not "fall" before being created. Lucifer was not a self made being God created him. God did not create evil ( there is already a thread for that discussion here.)

You would pick one of the most debated chpts! lol Salt in scriptures has a lot of meaning, there is a covenant of salt in Lev. 2 and Numbers 18, it represents the eternal relationship between God and His set apart ones. When salt loses its flavor its not worth a thing you cannot use it for seasonings or anything else other than maybe putting on ice. When we as His servants lose our 'salt' or our desire to serve Him, when we no longer are walking in His ways we lose His light, we lose our flavor so to speak. When we stop proclaiming His name above all elses, when we stop seeking His will in our lives, if we stop being His light to the world what good are we? We are to always keep His ways, His words first and foremost in our hearts and minds when we do this we are shedding His light through us, we are to guard always our hearts and minds against the worlds ways and cling to Him. Ok verses 17-19 will get you once again different points of view. I can only give you what I have come to understand. Messiah did not come to do away with anything He came to rightly show us how to walk in His commandments, which had been added to and taken away from through the decades mostly done during Judahs captivity by the Babylonians and the temple was destroyed the first time. Abolish means just that He did not come to do away with anything, fulfill means exactly what Yod said as well as to correctly interpret or to fill up with meaning. Messiah did not do away with His own laws but showed us how it is possible to keep them with the help of the Holy Spirit. And as we go into the last verse we see that whoever teaches people that there is no laws to keep, no instructions for righteous behavior teaches wrongly, we are not just to walk around thinking His grace covers us and allows us to sin and theres no consequences to that. Hope that helps a bit. shalom, Mizz Thank you, Mizzdy- that does help. As I gain more knowledge about God and His holy laws, I see more and more that I am incapable of keeping them outside of my relationship with Christ (which, as I have learned, is a gift from God Himself). I see that my "saltiness" also comes from God, from me constantly seeking a deeper relationship with Jesus and the Father, and from rejecting the ways of the world, the sin that it has to offer. Jesus is the only holy one that has ever walked the face of the earth, and therefore shines brighter than the darkness of sin- which is why I am considered a light in the world- because I belong to Jesus and the people living in sin can see Jesus' love by my words and actions that are seasoned with salt (the goodness that comes from Jesus Himself). Romans 2:18-19 "and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness". Am I getting it here? I'm so excited to be learning more!!! I do think you are drinking it all in! We are His light, if He dwells within we can only shine Him to the world! Messiah was the only one who walked sinlessly on this earth, and yes giving us the example that it is only by the indwelling of Gods Spirit that we can be righteous before Him. You know it doesn't matter how long one has been studying or walk on His path, we all get excited each day we open His word! I know I do! I think you are doing super! shalom, Mizz One of the main reason's I come to these forums is because it makes me read the bible with almost every post.

When reading this you need to keep in mind who Jesus was addressing. Jesus often spoke differently to large crowds than he did to his disciples. His audience here are mostly Jews, God's chosen people. Jesus is warning them not to lose their saltiness or they will be thrown out and trampled. Basically rejecting God lost them their salt and thus they were thrown out and trampled. Jesus wanted them to be like the lampstand that glorified God our Father. Jesus is basically refuting what the Jewish leaders where saying and what a lot of people were thinking about him here. He's telling them that he is the fulfillment of the scripture, he is the messiah who was prophesied about and the law is fulfilled in him. This is probably the hardest verse of this section. You can get into deep debate about different commandments, especially about the sabbath. Only one person has ever and will ever keep the commandments and he is called great in the kingdom of heaven. Others might be able to spread more light on this part. This is a jab at the Pharisees. People of that time thought that the Pharisees were the most holy and righteous people. The Pharisees would always make a big show of how holy they were in public. Jesus is saying that their show of righteousness isn't enough to get into heaven.

No, PeterH, apostasia (Greek) means defection (which is a kind of departure, I guess); abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed. An apostate is one who deserts professed principles or faith; a renegade. Construing the word apostasia to mean "departure" from the earth, rather than "defection," which is its meaning in Greek, French, Latin and English, is patently wrong. There is NO WAY on God's green earth that apostasia can mean anything else but departure from a standard. There are other Greek words which mean departure from a place and Paul didn't use them here. Chorizo in Acts 1:4 when the Believers were told not to depart from Jerusalem. exerchomai in Acts 16:36 and 16:39 at the release of Paul exeimi in Acts 20:7 referring to Paul's leaving the next day apolyo in Acts 23:20 referring to the release of one in custody ekporeuomai in Acts 25:4 when Festus stated that Paul should be kept at Caesarea but that he himself would depart shortly anagō in Acts 27:12 as a nautical reference meaning to put to sea or leave port aphistēmi in 2 Cor 12:8 referring to his infirmity when Paul asked God to make it depart from him hypagō in James 2:16 meaning to go away in peace (the famous prove faith by your works passage) The good Dr. Ice is wrong...on many points. Thank you Bold Believer, That's exactly the explanation I was looking for. It's hard for a laymen like myself to discount Doctors like the person I quoted in my original post.

USA today is reporting it as a 5.9 http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-08-23/Earthquake-rocks-East-Coast/50107542/1 glad to hear that there aren't any reports of injuries so far.

just some thoughts. We often see gold in contrast to knowledge, wisdom and faith in the bible. Necklaces of gold were sometimes worn by rulers to symbolize their wisdom. James 1:5 tells us to ask God if we lack wisdom and he will generously give it to us without reproach. God may be telling you to ask for his wisdom which it's depths can not be seen or measured hence not being able to see the bottom of the necklace.

Inferring something isn't the will of God because it's not mentioned is a very dangerous path. It's on the verge of adding to the word of God. If as you say tattooing was so common during the lives of the Apostles then why wasn't there something said against it if it is against God's will? No I say the main points of the bible are the plain points. Inferences like this only serve to cause division amongst the body.

So I've been thinking more on my post here and asked some other people about it. Maybe the first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20:6 is talking about the body of Christ as a whole being resurrected and complete. On the Lazarus subject. He wasn't resurrected into a gloried body he was brought back to life or restored. Still a supernatural miracle but Jesus is the first fruits and the first to be transformed to a glorified state.

I just read an article that Apple now has more cash than the US government. Is Steve Jobs going to be our new dictator?

Yep just did some math and got some great news if all of the US (312 Million people) got together and paid just 37,000 a year for the next 10 years we'd have this debt gone. Isn't that great!! better start hording your monopoly money its going to be worth more than our US dollar soon.

When I read Revelation chapter 20 I don't see the all the saints being resurrected just prior to the mil reign. I only see where it talks about the martyred saints during the great trib being resurrected just prior to the mil reign. Rev 20:4-6 NKJV 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. ESV same verses 4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. What catches my eye is that only the martyred saints during the trib are mentioned as being resurrected here not all saints and John saw people already on thrones with the authority to judge who were not the martyred saints. Who are the people on the thrones? Why would only the martyred saints be resurrected and the other saints left to wait until the mil reign is over? My opinion is that the saints who will be raptured and resurrected when Jesus calls us to meet him in the air are the people on the thrones seen here in Rev 20. The martyred saints are those who will come to follow Jesus after the rapture takes place. During the mil reign I don't know if life spans will be increase but I'm fairly certain people will die and some will die without following Jesus and some will follow. At the great white throne judgement all the dead will be judged and some might be found in the book of life from during the mil reign. What throws me for a loop and probably will until I get to ask Jesus face to face about it is the part about "This is the first resurrection". Because its not the first Jesus was the first and pre trib or post trib there still are the two witnesses that are resurrected prior to this resurrection. It must mean something but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

Smalcald, You are indeed correct. I misspoke about refusing to be baptized. Jesus did command it as part of the great commission in Matthew 28:19. It's funny when you get caught up in what you believe then to have someone force you to research it in scripture to only find out you're wrong. Thank you for making me research that out.

By whom are you being baptized? Mark 1:6-8 NKJV 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair and with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Being dunked into a body of water does not seal your salvation. (edited because I misspoke and have been corrected) Thanks Smalcald

I agree with the others here. hypnotherapy subjugates the patient to the suggestions of the therapist. Now I'm not saying therapist are evil people bent on destroying you (some are) but when you offer yourself up to that state of openness and willingness to follow suggestions you can bet your last dollar Satan and his horde are just dying to give you their suggestions. Sometimes I think we write off Lucifer because he is a defeated foe but he can still do damage and will at any opportunity you give him.

As someone already stated the 11 drew lots in Acts chapter one and choose Matthias to be the 12th. But I believe Jesus choose Saul of Tarsus aka Paul to replace Judas.

God knows all the " If's " as well.

Just a thought .. What if the days God gives to an aborted baby is 90 years but God allows the mother to sin by murdering the baby? God set the baby's time for 90 years but knows it's mother will murder it well before that time. So the true question would be why does God allow sin? To me I answer that with one of God's attributes is love and love is patience.

Hello, You can find a pretty detailed answer here http://www.notjustanotherbook.com/disputedjohn.htm

True 1 Corinthians 12 doesn't mention Love but chapter 13 is a continuation of the thoughts expressed in chapter 12. If you don't see Love and Hope as spiritual gifts I guess we just don't see eye to eye on that matter. They are given to us by the Spirit upon salvation, but are not listed as gifts of the Spirit. The explanation in chapter 13 tells us rightly that if we don't have love, we have nothing, no matter if we have all the gifts. Can you show me where hope and love are listed as one of the gifts given by the Spirit for the operations within the body, as listed in chapter 12? As you stated I also believe that hope and love are given to us by the Spirit when we accept the salvation of Jesus Christ. And since I can not earn anything prior to salvation they are gifts from the Holy Spirit freely given. By the way I say prior to salvation because there will be rewards in heaven based on our how we use our gifts we receive after we are saved. When I read chapter 12 what pops out at me is that Paul is describing gifts that would be pretty obvious if displayed. Then I read chapter 13 and what pops out is Paul showing them the gift that binds all believers together because we all have it. I believe love is the gift that even though it's not always obvious should be exercised the most because without love the other gifts would not build up the body of Christ. Also, I don't think that the list given in chapter 12 is the end all be all list of Spiritual gifts mainly because I don't think the Holy Spirit is limited to that list even though it is fairly encompassing. Again this is just how I see it but when chapter 13 verse 13 list hope and love next to faith, which has already been listed and established as a gift in chapter 12, I assume that hope and love are being added to the list. Chapter 13 verse 13 I believe states that faith, hope and love are the key or foundational gifts which are given to all who are saved and love is the greatest. I agree with moist of what you wrote. Where I am having a hard time is that faith (saving), hope (in God) and love (the love from Christ) are given to everyone when they are saved. The gifts in chapter 12 are not given to everyone, so they are different then what everyone has. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills, meaning not everyone will have them. This is verified as you read further in chapter 12. We also read in 1 Corinthians 14:1 "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy." If love was in fact one of the gifts, it would not of been mentioned aside from the spiritual gifts. What other gifts do you feel the Holy Spirit gives which are not mentioned in scripture, or in 1 Cor 12? First let me clear up what I think is a misunderstanding. I don't think everyone gets all the Spiritual gifts. The Holy Spirit gives us gifts as He sees fit but Paul does tell us to pray for certain ones. the NKJV and KJV of Corinthians 14:1 I think almost loses something in the old English poetic style in which they are written. I personally like the NLT of this verse which states " Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives—especially the ability to prophesy." So I'm saying that there are three gifts (at least) given to everyone by the Holy Spirit which are Love, Hope and Faith. Then there are other gifts that are not given to everyone like the ones you mentioned in your original post. I also said that the list given in 1 Corinthians 12 is not the complete list and that the Holy Spirit is not limited to it. Just a few other gifts found in scripture are exhortation, giving, leadership, mercy, service, teaching, and evangelism. Any ability you have that you use to build up the body of Christ can be considered a gift of the Spirit in my opinion.